[Felvtalk] Double Posted Blank Message...
Margo
toomanykitties2 at earthlink.net
Tue Oct 4 15:15:25 CDT 2016
Hi Bob,
I usually have no trouble with your messages, although they do always appear twice. Guess I didn't go far enough, sorry :)
I have had enucleations done on two cats. I don't think there's any way to do a less extensive surgery. They both (Gizmo and Poppy) did very well. Because most conditions that require this are painful, they both seemed to be react very well. The only thing that I noticed was they had a bit of difficulty judging distance at first, but that resolved in a very short time. One eventually needed the second eye removed as well, and as long as I didn't move anything, did fine, even still jumped to his favorite perches.
I understand financial constraints can be tough. You might consider a GoFundMe or YouCaring page. I'd be glad to help.
Margo
-----Original Message-----
>From: ROBERT CHAPEL <bchapel at optonline.net>
>Sent: Oct 4, 2016 2:03 PM
>To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Double Posted Blank Message...
>
>Margo:
>
>It is often frustrating posting here because ( perhaps depending on the
>internet provider, or the type of computer or OS someone is using) a lot
>of messages post differently ( eg.... ALL of mine come across with a
>bunch of Question marks in them that I did not put there myself....
>NOW my subject lines are double posting AND ( with my most recent
>question) it appears at the very bottom of the long list of postings and
>Unconnected to the subect lines ( go to the VERY bottom of the postings
>and it will look as though I am responding to Amani but actually that is
>just Amani's sign off on the previous post..... Sorry....
>I was soliciting information on people's experiences with having eyes
>removed from their ill cats..... I am paining over whether to do this as
>my boy looks like he " might" be improving a bit but he has " surprised
>me many times before looking like he's improving only to go south the
>next day..... I'm getting a price I can afford on the operation as a
>bit of a favor and am loathe to lose the price should she decide
>otherwise if I put it off to a later date...... wondering also ( given
>that the price is hundreds less than other quotes) if perhaps there are
>" lesser" operations where they , perhaps, only remove part of the eye
>without the underlying musculature for eg) ????
>Bob
>Warwick, NY
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 01:00 PM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org
>wrote:
>
> > Send Felvtalk mailing list submissions to
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Removing an Eye.... (Margo)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 07:21:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>> From: Margo To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Removing an Eye....
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <30487436.1475580063291.JavaMail.wam at mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> This double-posted message is blank for me.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ROBERT CHAPEL Sent: Oct 4, 2016 4:23 AM
>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> Cc: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Removing an Eye....
>>>
>>>
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> ?On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 03:29 AM,
>>> felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org wrote:
>>> ?
>>> ?> Send Felvtalk mailing list submissions to
>>>> felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>
>>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>>>
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> felvtalk-owner at felineleukemia.org
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Felvtalk digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>>>> (Ardy Robertson)
>>>> 2. Re: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>>>> (dlgegg at windstream.net)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 21:57:29 -0500
>>>> From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued
>>>> Improvement for Bogey on
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>> Message-ID: <005501d21deb$0c645df0$252d19d0$@centurytel.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Well I live in Osseo, Wisconsin ? and the Osseo Vet Clinic
>>>> prescribed it for me. They did not have a source for it, but I
>>>> located one online for them, and the vet who is no longer there,
>>>> would fill in a form online and order it, then I paid for it with a
>>>> credit card and it shipped to my house with one refill. After that
>>>> refill, the vet had to request it online again. The compounding
>>>> pharmacy I found online was wonderful ? they are called Diamond Back
>>>> Drugs. I believe it is www.diamondbackdrugs.com and they are
>>>> physically located in Arizona.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Animal Wellness Center in Mondovi, Wisconsin SAID they would get
>>>> it for me, only after I begged for it for weeks, but then they never
>>>> quite got around to finding a source for it, and when I gave them
>>>> the name of the Diamond Back Drug Company, they never quite got
>>>> around to ordering it. So I changed to the Osseo Vet Clinic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do believe the other vets at the Osseo Vet Clinic would prescribe
>>>> it for me because they were all aware Tigger was ?using? :) and they
>>>> knew that he made fantastic progress while on it. I just didn?t get
>>>> him started on it earlier enough and I did not know to give him
>>>> Doxycycline until it was too late. I think I would demand
>>>> Doxycycline for him if I had it to do over again because I believe
>>>> Amani is probably the most knowledgeable about this dreadful disease
>>>> that the vets have no answer for other than euthanization.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That?s my 2 cents worth.
>>>>
>>>> Ardy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Amy Glunt
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 9:07 PM
>>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be really great if we could all compile a list of
>>>> vets that prescribe the stanzolol, perhaps by state. That would be a
>>>> really great resource for people who are looking for this
>>>> information. I'm calling around my city tomorrow to see if I can
>>>> find any vets who will prescribe it for my cat.
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 1, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Sherri Godschalk > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Had to shorten this?hope it doesn?t post twice as it went to the
>>>> moderator because of size.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good to know about the liver test. I will NOT mention it to my vet.
>>>>
>>>> Since this whole process has started for Bogey and I, I often wonder
>>>> what logic is used when saying that the side affects from taking the
>>>> Stanzolol are liver issues, but the side effect of not taking it, is
>>>> death. I know for me personally, if I was sick and facing this
>>>> decision, I know what I would do without question. Believe it or
>>>> not, I read that exact paper you are describing when Bogey was first
>>>> prescribed the Stanzolol. (Google search) I felt pretty defeated
>>>> (although many of the terms were over my head) after reading it. I
>>>> did not notice the dosages though. Doesn?t sound like a very
>>>> scientific study does it. Maybe we should start our own. Post the
>>>> names of vets who are willing to prescribe it as well as the results
>>>> each person has with their pet that is taking it. There again, I am
>>>> way out in front of myself here because Bogey is not thriving but
>>>> she did just run into the room with a Q-tip in her mouth (her
>>>> favorite toy) and 60 days ago she could barely walk into the r
>>>> oom without laying down. She has also steadily gained weight. Over
>>>> a pound which doesn?t sound like much but she barely weighed 5
>>>> pounds to begin with. Life is still happening here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It does seem like there is secrecy surrounding vets prescribing
>>>> Stanzolol. Almost like I am scoring some heroin or something. (no I
>>>> am not a drug user) From what you found with your other cat, clearly
>>>> this could be a positive choice for inoperable tumors, and or life
>>>> extending treatment for senior pets. At any rate, I feel luckier
>>>> each day that my current vet values the life of my cat enough to try
>>>> to save her. It sounds like your vet is terrific and that you have a
>>>> great, long relationship with them. I hope to have the same, one
>>>> day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sherri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Felvtalk > on behalf of Amani Oakley >
>>>> Reply-To: >
>>>> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:29 PM
>>>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org " >
>>>> Subject: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sherri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn?t recommend you run the liver enzymes. If they rise (and
>>>> they often do) it will cause your vet to try to get you to stop the
>>>> Winstrol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was running a full biochemistry profile along with the full
>>>> haematology profile on Zander. So tests like ALP, AST, ALT, TBili
>>>> and DBili are indicators of liver function. With Zander, they rose
>>>> sharply, but there was simply no other option but to continue. I had
>>>> done all my research, tried out the two most likely new and
>>>> promising therapies (LTCI and Interferon) and they were not at all
>>>> (I mean AT ALL) helpful. So, discontinuing the Winstrol meant
>>>> certain death for Zander. I am so glad I ignored the liver enzymes.
>>>> They settled down on their own, and Zander never had any liver
>>>> problems after almost a FULL YEAR on Winstrol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had another cat with a nasal sarcoma, who was 16 when she got the
>>>> sarcoma and a tiny skinny thing. I put her on Winstrol because
>>>> again, there were no really good options. Again, I had a great
>>>> response, with it upping her appetite dramatically, and keeping the
>>>> sarcoma in a shrunken state with far less discharge and swelling
>>>> than prior to the administration of the Winstrol. Her liver enzymes
>>>> went through the roof and the vet (a very good friend of mine who is
>>>> the head of vet oncology and a brilliant man) knowing how I feel
>>>> about Winstrol, just asked if I would agree to discontinue the
>>>> Winstrol to see if the liver enzymes would reduce. (Very gently. He
>>>> knew he was on thin ice.) I did, for a few weeks, then put her back
>>>> on. She lived to age 19 with that sarcoma, because the Winstrol kept
>>>> her eating, and happy and strong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One of the smart folks on this chatline, recently sent me what was
>>>> likely the stupid vet research publication which likely started the
>>>> whole ?liver? scare. Look it up because I cannot attach it to this
>>>> email as it will not go through. The title is, ?Hepatotoxicity of
>>>> stanozolol in cats? by Kenneth R. Harkin, et. al. in JAVMA, Vol.
>>>> 217, No. 5, September 1, 2000. Bizarrely, in this study, the authors
>>>> put the cats on a ?loading dose? of 25 mg intramuscularly, then 2 mg
>>>> a day by mouth, every 12 hours. So, just for starters, you see that
>>>> for some reason, they started the cats on TEN TIMES the normal dose,
>>>> and them kept them on at least TWO TIMES the normal dosefor the rest
>>>> of the study. Even then, here are some telltale pieces of
>>>> information:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>>> Felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 2:29:17 -0500
>>>> From: To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>> Message-ID: <20161004032917.EGY3O.934.root at pamxwww04-z01>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>>
>>>> With some vets we have to get aggressive for the sake of our babies.
>>>> Either that or change vets. My problem is that being in a small
>>>> town, we don't have may vets to choose from. My current vet seems
>>>> more agreeable than the last one plus she is not always out on a
>>>> farm call when I need her.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---- Ardy Robertson wrote:
>>>>> Hi Sherri - when you go in again why don't you just ask the vet to
>>>>> humor you
>>>>> and let you try doxycycline just so that you can feel like you
>>>>> tried
>>>>> everything for Bogey. Maybe he will give in if you keep asking.
>>>>> When I
>>>>> changed vets during Tigger's treatment I told them flat out that I
>>>>> was going
>>>>> to be a steady customer for a while and I wanted all 4 of the vets
>>>>> to be
>>>>> aware of Tigger's condition and to please give me what I needed. I
>>>>> told them
>>>>> that Amani was helping me and basically that I wanted to call the
>>>>> shots and
>>>>> they were okay with it (to my surprise). I am normally a very
>>>>> mild-mannered
>>>>> person but when it came to my Tigger Baby's life, I was bold!!
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>> again Amani - we almost succeeded with Tigger, and if I had gotten
>>>>> the
>>>>> Winstrol sooner I think we would have :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ardy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>> Sherri Godschalk
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 6:54 PM
>>>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh my gosh Amani! What an incredible story. The chances that he
>>>>> could
>>>>> survive from where he was. I cannot imagine the joy you felt when
>>>>> you saw
>>>>> his gums were pink. What a long road for the both of you. Says so
>>>>> much about
>>>>> you. So your vet knew of the treatment but was afraid of it.
>>>>> Hopefully the
>>>>> next FELV cat they saw in their office, they remembered the success
>>>>> that you
>>>>> experienced and prescribed accordingly. How lucky that you had the
>>>>> knowledge
>>>>> you did, the confidence to respectfully challenge the ones telling
>>>>> you there
>>>>> was no hope. Zander was one lucky kitty.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't say that I don't worry about the side effects of the drugs
>>>>> Bogey is
>>>>> taking. But I understand that he has to survive THIS first. I am
>>>>> not so sure
>>>>> that my vet has anything against using Doxycicline as much as he
>>>>> just
>>>>> doesn't see a need for it yet. What test was run on Zander to check
>>>>> the
>>>>> liver enzymes you mentioned?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Getting the message out about this drug and it's positive response
>>>>> in FELV
>>>>> anemic cats is something I truly hope happens. When my vet gave me
>>>>> this pill
>>>>> for Bogey, I had no idea what it was. He told me it was a steroid
>>>>> that body
>>>>> builders take. I ran home, gave the cat the pill, sat down at my
>>>>> computer
>>>>> and Googled "Felv Stanzolol" and this site came up. I have written
>>>>> a bit
>>>>> about my experience thus far here, and on a Facebook page for FIV
>>>>> and FELV
>>>>> cats. But it makes me feel bad for the people that read it and get
>>>>> hopeful,
>>>>> go to their vets and get the "doesn't help", "bad for livers" or
>>>>> just "No".
>>>>> I know it is very early in Bogey's treatment and she may not
>>>>> continue to get
>>>>> better with just what she is taking. But I am glad for every moment
>>>>> that I
>>>>> have with her. I hope I have hundreds and thousands more.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for sharing the story about Zander. Amazing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Felvtalk >
>>>>> Reply-To:
>>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM
>>>>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org "
>>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Sherri. There's no question this is a frustrating, devastating
>>>>> disease,
>>>>> made far far worse by vets lacking in knowledge, and committed to
>>>>> just
>>>>> putting down FeLV cats. Sherri, Zander's haematocrit was actually
>>>>> down to 5
>>>>> initially, and he had to be placed in an oxygen tent because his
>>>>> haemoglobin
>>>>> was so low his body would have had trouble transporting oxygen to
>>>>> the cells
>>>>> in his body. I gave him blood transfusions initially, but could see
>>>>> that
>>>>> they were only temporary stopgaps, and after the second one, he had
>>>>> a
>>>>> reaction, so I was told he couldn't have any more transfusions, as
>>>>> the next
>>>>> one would kill him. As a former medical technologist, I knew that
>>>>> to be
>>>>> true. (In Canada, they didn't test for blood type at the time -
>>>>> don't know
>>>>> if they do now.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After trying Zander on a course of Interferon and a course of LTCI
>>>>> (or
>>>>> whatever it is called - I always mix up the letters), I totally by
>>>>> chance,
>>>>> opened up my drawer and rummaged through it in desperation because
>>>>> his
>>>>> haematocrit had dropped from a high of 16 after his second blood
>>>>> transfusion, back down to 10, and I knew I was going to lose him
>>>>> soon. He
>>>>> was on Doxycycline and Prednisone, but it wasn't doing a thing for
>>>>> his cell
>>>>> lines, which were all depressed - with the most critical being the
>>>>> red
>>>>> cells/haematocrit numbers. Imagine my total surprise when, after I
>>>>> gave him
>>>>> some old Winstrol I found in the drawer, I started noticing his
>>>>> ears and
>>>>> gums taking on a pink hue and when I tested him 3 days after
>>>>> starting the
>>>>> Winstrol, the haematocrit had gone up instead of steadily down.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My surprise grew, and finally overcame my skepticism (I mean,
>>>>> really, what
>>>>> are the odds that I discovered a cure???) and Zander's results kept
>>>>> slowly
>>>>> but steadily rising for months and months until he was finally out
>>>>> of danger
>>>>> and then into the normal reference range for all his results.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then, after a year, when I told the internal specialist who had
>>>>> very kindly
>>>>> told me there was no hope with this disease, imagine my shock that
>>>>> he KNEW
>>>>> about Winstrol and said that I had gone "old-school" and this has
>>>>> been
>>>>> something they used to use for this disease until "word" spread
>>>>> that the
>>>>> drug could cause liver damage!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, after reading about all the experiences of so many people
>>>>> in this
>>>>> situation, I realize how lucky I am. Because of my background in
>>>>> health
>>>>> care, my very long relationship with my vet clinic (which I would
>>>>> often
>>>>> diagnose things before them and/or I would identify problems they
>>>>> hadn't
>>>>> seen) AND very likely, my prickly personality/refusal to take no
>>>>> for an
>>>>> answer, my vets were good enough to back off and let me do my
>>>>> thing. They
>>>>> recognized that, OBVIOUSLY, they had nothing to offer me if the
>>>>> Winstrol
>>>>> didn't work. They faithfully tried the Interferon and the LTCI at
>>>>> my
>>>>> request, and ran the weekly bloodwork, and agreed that there were
>>>>> no
>>>>> positive effects. They saw the positive effects with the WInstrol.
>>>>> They
>>>>> tried on a few occasions to talk me into discontinuing or reducing
>>>>> the
>>>>> Winstrol when the liver enzymes increased, but after what Zander
>>>>> had been
>>>>> through - being on the brink of death - I was not open to
>>>>> discussing this
>>>>> option. On a few occasions I would reduce the Winstrol briefly,
>>>>> only to see
>>>>> his haematology drop. I would then hold my breath for a few days or
>>>>> weeks,
>>>>> to let the liver enzymes settle a bit, before getting him back on
>>>>> the
>>>>> WInstrol. However, I don't think any of the vets were prepared to
>>>>> argue with
>>>>> the obvious success. They had seen the unbelievably low haematocrit
>>>>> and red
>>>>> cell count, for themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just don't know how we can get this message across to mainstream
>>>>> vets.
>>>>> This is NOT an evil drug which must be avoided at all costs. I wish
>>>>> I could
>>>>> address a vet convention. If I had LITTLE TIME, I would write a
>>>>> paper and
>>>>> submit it for publication in a vet publication.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get angered when I hear about all the trouble everyone has,
>>>>> getting some
>>>>> Winstrol for their cats, despite the desperate circumstances the
>>>>> cats are
>>>>> in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sherri, the odd thing for you is that your vet is okay with the
>>>>> Winstrol but
>>>>> not the Doxycycline. Really bizarre!
>>>>>
>>>>> No wonder underground markets flourish. It just shouldn't be this
>>>>> hard to be
>>>>> at least given an opportunity and a bit of hope to save our cats.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Amani
>>>>>
>>>>> My " problem" guy...? Yogi..... is not progressing much with his
>>>>> Corneal Ulcer and I have found a vet that is willing to remove his
>>>>> eye for a VERY reasonable price ( Hundreds less than the quotes
>>>>> that I have gotten in my area.....? I neglected to ask if there was
>>>>> an abbreviated version that might not be as extensive as the full
>>>>> removal of Eyeball and surrounding musculature given the extreme
>>>>> difference in price....
>>>
>>> Any of you who has had a Cats eye removed have any recollection of
>>> what you might have paid....? I don't want to miss the opportunity to
>>> get this done but am shakey about it given his debilitated status( I
>>> could lose him)...at the same time ...the eye does not appear to be
>>> improving much and even if it does improve the odds favor the
>>> problems returning ( if he were not FeLV I would be more inclined to
>>> stick it out until the Ulcer healed.... But I am fearful that I might
>>> lose the opportunity to have it done at a reasonable price if I tryto
>>> keep him on the road to healing the right eye with his current
>>> medications*( He's already developing some sinus complications given
>>> the proximity of the eye to sinus tracts and the need to drain off
>>> fluid from the eye....???? Anyone have a recollection of how their
>>> cats reacted to surgical removal? of an eye....? eg.. Recovery
>>> time.....thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Felvtalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 5
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
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