[Felvtalk] Double Posted Blank Message...

Tue Oct 4 22:22:11 CDT 2016

I would hate to have to make this decision.

---- ROBERT CHAPEL <bchapel at optonline.net> wrote: 
> Margo:

It is often frustrating posting here because ( perhaps depending on the 
internet provider, or the type of computer or OS someone is using) a lot 
of messages post differently ( eg.... ALL of mine come across with a 
bunch of Question marks in them that I did not put there myself....   
NOW my subject lines are double posting AND ( with my most recent 
question) it appears at the very bottom of the long list of postings and 
Unconnected to the subect lines ( go to the VERY bottom of the postings 
and it will look as though I am responding to Amani but actually that is 
just Amani's sign off on the previous post..... Sorry....
I was soliciting information on people's experiences with having eyes 
removed from their ill cats..... I am paining over whether to do this as 
my boy looks like he " might" be improving a bit but he has " surprised 
me many times before looking like he's improving only to go south the 
next day.....   I'm getting a price I can afford on the operation as a 
bit of a favor and am loathe to lose the price should she decide 
otherwise if I put it off to a later date......  wondering also ( given 
that the price is hundreds less than other quotes) if perhaps there are 
" lesser" operations where they , perhaps, only remove part of the eye 
without the underlying musculature for eg) ????
Bob
Warwick, NY

 On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 01:00 PM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org 
wrote:

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>    1. Re: Removing an Eye.... (Margo)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 07:21:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> From: Margo To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Removing an Eye....
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> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ROBERT CHAPEL Sent: Oct 4, 2016 4:23 AM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>> Cc: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Removing an Eye....
>>
>>
>> ?
>> ?
>> ?On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 03:29 AM, 
>> felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org wrote:
>> ?
>> ?> Send Felvtalk mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Re: FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>>>       (Ardy Robertson)
>>>    2. Re: FW:  Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>>>       (dlgegg at windstream.net)
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 21:57:29 -0500
>>> From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued 
>>> Improvement for Bogey on
>>> 	Stanzolol
>>> Message-ID: <005501d21deb$0c645df0$252d19d0$@centurytel.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Well I live in Osseo, Wisconsin ? and the Osseo Vet Clinic 
>>> prescribed it for me. They did not have a source for it, but I 
>>> located one online for them, and the vet who is no longer there, 
>>> would fill in a form online and order it, then I paid for it with a 
>>> credit card and it shipped to my house with one refill. After that 
>>> refill, the vet had to request it online again. The compounding 
>>> pharmacy I found online was wonderful ? they are called Diamond Back 
>>> Drugs. I believe it is www.diamondbackdrugs.com   and they are 
>>> physically located in Arizona.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Animal Wellness Center in Mondovi, Wisconsin SAID they would get 
>>> it for me, only after I begged for it for weeks, but then they never 
>>> quite got around to finding a source for it, and when I gave them 
>>> the name of the Diamond Back Drug Company, they never quite got 
>>> around to ordering it. So I changed to the Osseo Vet Clinic.
>>>
>>>
>>> I do believe the other vets at the Osseo Vet Clinic would prescribe 
>>> it for me because they were all aware Tigger was ?using? :) and they 
>>> knew that he made fantastic progress while on it. I just didn?t get 
>>> him started on it earlier enough and I did not know to give him 
>>> Doxycycline until it was too late. I think I would demand 
>>> Doxycycline for him if I had it to do over again because I believe 
>>> Amani is probably the most knowledgeable about this dreadful disease 
>>> that the vets have no answer for other than euthanization.
>>>
>>>
>>> That?s my 2 cents worth.
>>>
>>> Ardy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Amy Glunt
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 9:07 PM
>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>>> Stanzolol
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it would be really great if we could all compile a list of 
>>> vets that prescribe the stanzolol, perhaps by state. That would be a 
>>> really great resource for people who are looking for this 
>>> information. I'm calling around my city tomorrow to see if I can 
>>> find any vets who will prescribe it for my cat.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 1, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Sherri Godschalk  > wrote:
>>>
>>> Had to shorten this?hope it doesn?t post twice as it went to the 
>>> moderator because of size.
>>>
>>>
>>> Good to know about the liver test. I will NOT mention it to my vet.
>>>
>>> Since this whole process has started for Bogey and I, I often wonder 
>>> what logic is used when saying that the side affects from taking the 
>>> Stanzolol are liver issues, but the side effect of not taking it, is 
>>> death. I know for me personally, if I was sick and facing this 
>>> decision, I know what I would do without question. Believe it or 
>>> not, I read that exact paper you are describing when Bogey was first 
>>> prescribed the Stanzolol. (Google search) I felt pretty defeated 
>>> (although many of the terms were over my head) after reading it. I 
>>> did not notice the dosages though. Doesn?t sound like a very 
>>> scientific study does it. Maybe we should start our own. Post the 
>>> names of vets who are willing to prescribe it as well as the results 
>>> each person has with their pet that is taking it. There again, I am 
>>> way out in front of myself here because Bogey is not thriving but 
>>> she did just run into the room with a Q-tip in her mouth (her 
>>> favorite toy) and 60 days ago she could barely walk into the r
>>>  oom without laying down. She has also steadily gained weight. Over 
>>> a pound which doesn?t sound like much but she barely weighed 5 
>>> pounds to begin with. Life is still happening here.
>>>
>>>
>>> It does seem like there is secrecy surrounding vets prescribing 
>>> Stanzolol. Almost like I am scoring some heroin or something. (no I 
>>> am not a drug user) From what you found with your other cat, clearly 
>>> this could be a positive choice for inoperable tumors, and or life 
>>> extending treatment for senior pets. At any rate, I feel luckier 
>>> each day that my current vet values the life of my cat enough to try 
>>> to save her. It sounds like your vet is terrific and that you have a 
>>> great, long relationship with them. I hope to have the same, one 
>>> day.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sherri
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Felvtalk  > on behalf of Amani Oakley  >
>>> Reply-To:  >
>>> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:29 PM
>>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  "  >
>>> Subject: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>>> Stanzolol
>>>
>>>
>>> Sherri
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn?t recommend you run the liver enzymes. If they rise (and 
>>> they often do) it will cause your vet to try to get you to stop the 
>>> Winstrol.
>>>
>>>
>>> I was running a full biochemistry profile along with the full 
>>> haematology profile on Zander. So tests like ALP, AST, ALT, TBili 
>>> and DBili are indicators of liver function. With Zander, they rose 
>>> sharply, but there was simply no other option but to continue. I had 
>>> done all my research, tried out the two most likely new and 
>>> promising therapies (LTCI and Interferon) and they were not at all 
>>> (I mean AT ALL) helpful. So, discontinuing the Winstrol meant 
>>> certain death for Zander. I am so glad I ignored the liver enzymes. 
>>> They settled down on their own, and Zander never had any liver 
>>> problems after almost a FULL YEAR on Winstrol.
>>>
>>>
>>> I had another cat with a nasal sarcoma, who was 16 when she got the 
>>> sarcoma and a tiny skinny thing. I put her on Winstrol because 
>>> again, there were no really good options. Again, I had a great 
>>> response, with it upping her appetite dramatically, and keeping the 
>>> sarcoma in a shrunken state with far less discharge and swelling 
>>> than prior to the administration of the Winstrol. Her liver enzymes 
>>> went through the roof and the vet (a very good friend of mine who is 
>>> the head of vet oncology and a brilliant man) knowing how I feel 
>>> about Winstrol, just asked if I would agree to discontinue the 
>>> Winstrol to see if the liver enzymes would reduce. (Very gently. He 
>>> knew he was on thin ice.)  I did, for a few weeks, then put her back 
>>> on. She lived to age 19 with that sarcoma, because the Winstrol kept 
>>> her eating, and happy and strong.
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the smart folks on this chatline, recently sent me what was 
>>> likely the stupid vet research publication which likely started the 
>>> whole ?liver? scare. Look it up because I cannot attach it to this 
>>> email as it will not go through. The title is, ?Hepatotoxicity of 
>>> stanozolol in cats? by Kenneth R. Harkin, et. al. in JAVMA, Vol. 
>>> 217, No. 5, September 1, 2000. Bizarrely, in this study, the authors 
>>> put the cats on a ?loading dose? of 25 mg intramuscularly, then 2 mg 
>>> a day by mouth, every 12 hours. So, just for starters, you see that 
>>> for some reason, they started the cats on TEN TIMES the normal dose, 
>>> and them kept them on at least TWO TIMES the normal dosefor the rest 
>>> of the study. Even then, here are some telltale pieces of 
>>> information:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Felvtalk at felineleukemia.org 
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 2:29:17 -0500
>>> From: To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW:  Continued Improvement for Bogey on
>>> 	Stanzolol
>>> Message-ID: <20161004032917.EGY3O.934.root at pamxwww04-z01>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> With some vets we have to get aggressive for the sake of our babies. 
>>> Either that or change vets.  My problem is that being in a small 
>>> town, we don't have may vets to choose from.  My current vet seems 
>>> more agreeable than the last one plus she is not always out on a 
>>> farm call when I need her.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---- Ardy Robertson  wrote:
>>>> Hi Sherri - when you go in again why don't you just ask the vet to 
>>>> humor you
>>>> and let you try doxycycline just so that you can feel like you 
>>>> tried
>>>> everything for Bogey. Maybe he will give in if you keep asking. 
>>>> When I
>>>> changed vets during Tigger's treatment I told them flat out that I 
>>>> was going
>>>> to be a steady customer for a while and I wanted all 4 of the vets 
>>>> to be
>>>> aware of Tigger's condition and to please give me what I needed. I 
>>>> told them
>>>> that Amani was helping me and basically that I wanted to call the 
>>>> shots and
>>>> they were okay with it (to my surprise). I am normally a very 
>>>> mild-mannered
>>>> person but when it came to my Tigger Baby's life, I was bold!! 
>>>> Thank you
>>>> again Amani - we almost succeeded with Tigger, and if I had gotten 
>>>> the
>>>> Winstrol sooner I think we would have :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ardy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On 
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Sherri Godschalk
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 6:54 PM
>>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh my gosh Amani! What an incredible story. The chances that he 
>>>> could
>>>> survive from where he was. I cannot imagine the joy you felt when 
>>>> you saw
>>>> his gums were pink. What a long road for the both of you. Says so 
>>>> much about
>>>> you. So your vet knew of the treatment but was afraid of it. 
>>>> Hopefully the
>>>> next FELV cat they saw in their office, they remembered the success 
>>>> that you
>>>> experienced and prescribed accordingly. How lucky that you had the 
>>>> knowledge
>>>> you did, the confidence to respectfully challenge the ones telling 
>>>> you there
>>>> was no hope. Zander was one lucky kitty.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't say that I don't worry about the side effects of the drugs 
>>>> Bogey is
>>>> taking. But I understand that he has to survive THIS first. I am 
>>>> not so sure
>>>> that my vet has anything against using Doxycicline as much as he 
>>>> just
>>>> doesn't see a need for it yet. What test was run on Zander to check 
>>>> the
>>>> liver enzymes you mentioned?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Getting the message out about this drug and it's positive response 
>>>> in FELV
>>>> anemic cats is something I truly hope happens. When my vet gave me 
>>>> this pill
>>>> for Bogey, I had no idea what it was. He told me it was a steroid 
>>>> that body
>>>> builders take. I ran home, gave the cat the pill, sat down at my 
>>>> computer
>>>> and Googled "Felv Stanzolol" and this site came up. I have written 
>>>> a bit
>>>> about my experience thus far here, and on a Facebook page for FIV 
>>>> and FELV
>>>> cats. But it makes me feel bad for the people that read it and get 
>>>> hopeful,
>>>> go to their vets and get the "doesn't help", "bad for livers" or 
>>>> just "No".
>>>> I know it is very early in Bogey's treatment and she may not 
>>>> continue to get
>>>> better with just what she is taking. But I am glad for every moment 
>>>> that I
>>>> have with her. I hope I have hundreds and thousands more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for sharing the story about Zander. Amazing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Felvtalk  >
>>>> Reply-To:
>>>>>
>>>> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM
>>>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  "
>>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>>>> Stanzolol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Sherri. There's no question this is a frustrating, devastating 
>>>> disease,
>>>> made far far worse by vets lacking in knowledge, and committed to 
>>>> just
>>>> putting down FeLV cats. Sherri, Zander's haematocrit was actually 
>>>> down to 5
>>>> initially, and he had to be placed in an oxygen tent because his 
>>>> haemoglobin
>>>> was so low his body would have had trouble transporting oxygen to 
>>>> the cells
>>>> in his body. I gave him blood transfusions initially, but could see 
>>>> that
>>>> they were only temporary stopgaps, and after the second one, he had 
>>>> a
>>>> reaction, so I was told he couldn't have any more transfusions, as 
>>>> the next
>>>> one would kill him. As a former medical technologist, I knew that 
>>>> to be
>>>> true. (In Canada, they didn't test for blood type at the time - 
>>>> don't know
>>>> if they do now.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After trying Zander on a course of Interferon and a course of LTCI 
>>>> (or
>>>> whatever it is called - I always mix up the letters), I totally by 
>>>> chance,
>>>> opened up my drawer and rummaged through it in desperation because 
>>>> his
>>>> haematocrit had dropped from a high of 16 after his second blood
>>>> transfusion, back down to 10, and I knew I was going to lose him 
>>>> soon. He
>>>> was on Doxycycline and Prednisone, but it wasn't doing a thing for 
>>>> his cell
>>>> lines, which were all depressed - with the most critical being the 
>>>> red
>>>> cells/haematocrit numbers. Imagine my total surprise when, after I 
>>>> gave him
>>>> some old Winstrol I found in the drawer, I started noticing his 
>>>> ears and
>>>> gums taking on a pink hue and when I tested him 3 days after 
>>>> starting the
>>>> Winstrol, the haematocrit had gone up instead of steadily down.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My surprise grew, and finally overcame my skepticism (I mean, 
>>>> really, what
>>>> are the odds that I discovered a cure???) and Zander's results kept 
>>>> slowly
>>>> but steadily rising for months and months until he was finally out 
>>>> of danger
>>>> and then into the normal reference range for all his results.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then, after a year, when I told the internal specialist who had 
>>>> very kindly
>>>> told me there was no hope with this disease, imagine my shock that 
>>>> he KNEW
>>>> about Winstrol and said that I had gone "old-school" and this has 
>>>> been
>>>> something they used to use for this disease until "word" spread 
>>>> that the
>>>> drug could cause liver damage!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, after reading about all the experiences of so many people 
>>>> in this
>>>> situation, I realize how lucky I am. Because of my background in 
>>>> health
>>>> care, my very long relationship with my vet clinic (which I would 
>>>> often
>>>> diagnose things before them and/or I would identify problems they 
>>>> hadn't
>>>> seen) AND very likely, my prickly personality/refusal to take no 
>>>> for an
>>>> answer, my vets were good enough to back off and let me do my 
>>>> thing. They
>>>> recognized that, OBVIOUSLY, they had nothing to offer me if the 
>>>> Winstrol
>>>> didn't work. They faithfully tried the Interferon and the LTCI at 
>>>> my
>>>> request, and ran the weekly bloodwork, and agreed that there were 
>>>> no
>>>> positive effects. They saw the positive effects with the WInstrol. 
>>>> They
>>>> tried on a few occasions to talk me into discontinuing or reducing 
>>>> the
>>>> Winstrol when the liver enzymes increased, but after what Zander 
>>>> had been
>>>> through - being on the brink of death - I was not open to 
>>>> discussing this
>>>> option. On a few occasions I would reduce the Winstrol briefly, 
>>>> only to see
>>>> his haematology drop. I would then hold my breath for a few days or 
>>>> weeks,
>>>> to let the liver enzymes settle a bit, before getting him back on 
>>>> the
>>>> WInstrol. However, I don't think any of the vets were prepared to 
>>>> argue with
>>>> the obvious success. They had seen the unbelievably low haematocrit 
>>>> and red
>>>> cell count, for themselves.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just don't know how we can get this message across to mainstream 
>>>> vets.
>>>> This is NOT an evil drug which must be avoided at all costs. I wish 
>>>> I could
>>>> address a vet convention. If I had LITTLE TIME, I would write a 
>>>> paper and
>>>> submit it for publication in a vet publication.
>>>>
>>>> I get angered when I hear about all the trouble everyone has, 
>>>> getting some
>>>> Winstrol for their cats, despite the desperate circumstances the 
>>>> cats are
>>>> in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sherri, the odd thing for you is that your vet is okay with the 
>>>> Winstrol but
>>>> not the Doxycycline. Really bizarre!
>>>>
>>>> No wonder underground markets flourish. It just shouldn't be this 
>>>> hard to be
>>>> at least given an opportunity and a bit of hope to save our cats.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Amani
>>>>
>>>>  My " problem" guy...? Yogi..... is not progressing much with his 
>>>> Corneal Ulcer and I have found a vet that is willing to remove his 
>>>> eye for a VERY reasonable price ( Hundreds less than the quotes 
>>>> that I have gotten in my area.....? I neglected to ask if there was 
>>>> an abbreviated version that might not be as extensive as the full 
>>>> removal of Eyeball and surrounding musculature given the extreme 
>>>> difference in price....
>>
>> Any of you who has had a Cats eye removed have any recollection of 
>> what you might have paid....? I don't want to miss the opportunity to 
>> get this done but am shakey about it given his debilitated status( I 
>> could lose him)...at the same time ...the eye does not appear to be 
>> improving much and even if it does improve the odds favor the 
>> problems returning ( if he were not FeLV I would be more inclined to 
>> stick it out until the Ulcer healed.... But I am fearful that I might 
>> lose the opportunity to have it done at a reasonable price if I tryto 
>> keep him on the road to healing the right eye with his current 
>> medications*( He's already developing some sinus complications given 
>> the proximity of the eye to sinus tracts and the need to drain off 
>> fluid from the eye....???? Anyone have a recollection of how their 
>> cats reacted to surgical removal? of an eye....? eg.. Recovery 
>> time.....thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
>>>>
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>>>
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