<div dir="ltr">Thanks, Robert. I'll definitely know what to ask for if it comes to that. Curly is still eating a significant amount of the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers twice a day and she ate quite a bit of canned tuna last night. We'll be starting the Winstrol tonight and will be waiting on the Doxy until Monday because of our holiday schedule. I'm a little concerned about her respiration rate which has crept up into the 40s.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:52 AM, ROBERT CHAPEL <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bchapel@optonline.net" target="_blank">bchapel@optonline.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Randy....<br>
<br>
I'm not sure if the dosages of prednisone and Winstrol Curly will be getting are in the range that were formerly used for appetite stimulation in Kitties...( yes in the " old " days Corticosterioids AND anabolic Steroids were the go to drugs for appetite stimulation but often did more harm than good if not used judiciously..... The other drug that Ardy was referring to was likely Cyproheptadine... an antihistamine that has since been replaced by Mirtazapine ( an antidepressant in humans) in part due to an easier dosing schedule( Daily to Q3days vs every 8 hours or so for the Cypro//// There are many who still swear by the Cyproheptadine( I'll write out the full word rather than cause the confusion of mixing it up with the antibiotic_ Cipro. All of the above have worked a " little " for my different cats over the years. Most recently I used Mirtazapine for my boy Yogi ( who has been on no less than 10 different Meds in the past few months and it worked well for a couple of days... but then not at all..... Fortunately the crisis passed and he went back to eating on his own when the pain in his eye subsided ( Now he appears to be developing Nasal complications due to all the damn Eye Drops I have to give him to keep his Uveitis at bay and clear up the Ocular Herpes that caused the whole mess..... FeLV can be a challenge for some unlucky Kitties for sure.... Have any of the folks here who have used he combination of Prednisolone and Wintrol noticed increases in appetite??<br>
<br>
<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Bogey's Blood Test Today These look worse PG 2<br>
(Sherri Godschalk)<br>
2. Re: FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis (Ardy Robertson)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:25:39 -0500<br>
From: Sherri Godschalk To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test Today These look worse PG 2<br>
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Well I am not sure he noticed some of the increases on page 2 here. It seems<br>
like all of these are going the wrong direction. She isn?t showing any<br>
jaundice and her gait is much improved but still having some issues with<br>
balance. I ask them to run the full battery of blood tests today but it<br>
doesn?t look like they did. Do you all agree that these numbers are not<br>
better but in fact worse than when they released her on Dec 14th?<br>
Scale 20-Dec 14-Dec 12-Dec<br>
GLU 74-159 122 125 178<br>
BUN 16-36 21 14 23<br>
CREA 08-2.4 1.1 0.8 1.3<br>
BUN/CREA 19 18 18<br>
PHOS 3.1-7.5 4.5<br>
CA 7.8-11.3 9.8 TP 5.7-8.9 8.1 7.9 8.7<br>
ALB 2.2-4.0 3.4 2.9 3.1<br>
GLOB 2.8-5.1 4.7 5 5.6<br>
ALB/GLB 0.7 0.6 0.6<br>
ALT 12-130 581 192 237<br>
ALKP 14-111 81 42 39<br>
GGT 0-4 8 TBIL .0-.9 27.2 27.9<br>
CHOL 65-225 170 AMYL 500-1500 842<br>
LIPA 100-1400 255<br>
NA 150-165 158 K 3.5-5.8 3.4 NA/K 46 CL 112-129 114 OSM CALC 318 Sherri<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk on behalf of Randy<br>
Henke Reply-To: Date: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 at 4:54 PM<br>
To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test Today<br>
<br>
That is phenomenal, Sherri! I'm hoping for a repeat of that performance with<br>
our girl, Curly.<br>
<br>
On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Sherri Godschalk wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Bogey is still improving. The Dr came out to talk with me himself instead of<br>
sending out a tech. Never does that. He said everything looked good except her<br>
red blood cells have gotten smaller but there are more of them. As well as him<br>
being concerned about infection since her WBC and NEU are elevated. I read<br>
that can be from pred and he gave her a shot of it before he sent her home<br>
last week when normally I gave her a pill each day. He wants me to start her<br>
back on the Doxy and Winstrol but not the pred yet. I still feel like it might<br>
be soon on the Winstrol since she hasn't been out of the hospital for even a<br>
week yet. I will post the 2nd page of the blood test later if anyone is<br>
interested. But LOOK at the Platelet count...go Bogey!<br>
<br>
Range 20-Dec 12-Dec 26-Oct 30-Sep 16-Sep 24-Aug<br>
RBC 6.54 12.2 5.57 4.99 2.54 2.9 2.57 2.43<br>
HCT 30.3 52.3 30.9 35.1 14.8 17.9 15.3 15.3<br>
HGB 9.8 16.2 10.2 10.4 5.2 6.2 5.5 5.3<br>
MCV 35.9 53.1 55.5 70.3 58.3 61.7 59.1 62.6<br>
MCH 11.8 17.3 18.3 20.8 20.5 21.4 21.4 21.8<br>
MCHC 28.1 35.8 33 29.6 35.1 34.6 36.2 34.9<br>
RDW 15 27 23.8 22.2 24.5 25.2 23.7 23.9<br>
RETIC 3 50 37.3 27.4 89.9 82.1 78.1 61.5<br>
WBC 2.87 17.02 22.34 8.59 13.05 12.01 14.47 13.46<br>
NEU 1.48 10.29 15.82 5.42 3.97 3.96 4.07 4.03<br>
LYM 0.92 6.88 3.98 2.21 7.8 6.81 8.83 7.75<br>
MONO 0.05 0.67 1.89 0.87 1.16 1.17 1.52 1.58<br>
EOS 0.17 1.57 0.49 0.08 0.11 0.06 0.004 0.01<br>
BASO 0.01 0.26 0.16 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0<br>
PLT 151 800 295 122 28 53 88 50<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 21:46:37 -0600<br>
From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
Message-ID: <012c01d25b3c$d67ac0a0$837041e<wbr>0$@<a href="http://centurytel.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">centurytel.net</a>><br>
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<br>
Best of luck to you with Curly ---- just wanted to mention there are appetite stimulant pills available. One that I remember that I used with Tigger was Mirtazapine and I only had to give a small part of a pill every 3 days. Amani knows of another one but I can?t remember the name of it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ardy<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk [mailto:<a href="mailto:felvtalk-bounces@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk-bounces@felin<wbr>eleukemia.org</a>] On Behalf Of Randy Henke<br>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 8:10 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk@felineleukemia.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
<br>
<br>
Our vet must be one of the good ones. He approved both Winstrol and Doxycycline even though he has never used them for FELV positive cats. We'll be adding those onto Curly's Prednisone as soon as we get them. So far she is hanging in there. She only eats Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers (about a small can every other day) but her weight is holding around 7 pounds. About a half pound below her best weight before she got sick. She still gets up to get drinks of water and use the litter box and she is still grooming herself. She wants very little social interaction which is not like her at all and she has very little energy, preferring to stay on the bed almost all of the time. Her breathing is also fairly rapid and has been for quite a few days.<br>
<br>
Hopefully this will be another success story for your kitty cocktail. We'll owe you much if it works.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Amani Oakley > wrote:<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
I really don?t know. I have only had experience with the pills which I found very effective. As a compromise option, I would take if that is the only way the vet will agree to proceed.<br>
<br>
Amani<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk [mailto:<a href="mailto:felvtalk-bounces@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk-bounces@felin<wbr>eleukemia.org</a> ] On Behalf Of Randy Henke<br>
Sent: December-19-16 9:46 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk@felineleukemia.org</a> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Amani,<br>
<br>
I have a call in to our vet now about the Winstrol and Doxycycline. I've read that there is also the option of getting a weekly shot of Winstrol as opposed to the pills. If our vet balks at prescribing the pills but would be willing to give her the shot would it still work as well?<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:<br>
<br>
Wishing you luck.<br>
<br>
<br>
Amani<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk [mailto:<a href="mailto:felvtalk-bounces@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk-bounces@felin<wbr>eleukemia.org</a> ] On Behalf Of Randy Henke<br>
Sent: December-16-16 8:12 PM<br>
<br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk@felineleukemia.org</a> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you, Amani! I'll see what I can do to convince the vet on Monday.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:<br>
<br>
1 mg 2 times a day.<br>
<br>
Amani<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk [mailto:<a href="mailto:felvtalk-bounces@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk-bounces@felin<wbr>eleukemia.org</a> ] On Behalf Of Randy Henke<br>
Sent: December-16-16 7:52 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk@felineleukemia.org</a> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
<br>
<br>
That is information that is definitely useful to me! Thanks so much! Do you know what dosage of Winstrol I should ask for for a 6.8 pound cat? I want to have as much info as possible when I talk to my vet on Monday.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:<br>
<br>
No Randy, Winstrol is an anabolic steroid (unlike prednisone which is a corticosteroid) so it does not have a dampening effect on the immune system. What you need right now is something to stimulate red cell production. If your cat has FELV, then the problem is that the progenitor cells in the bone marrow will have been infiltrated/killed by the virus and thus, the red cell production is down. Red cells have a life span of 120 days in circulation, so once that is over and they die, then they must be replenished by a steady supply of new cells from the bone marrow.<br>
<br>
The only thing I have found that will do that is Winstrol. However, I use it in a cocktail with Doxycycline which has been found to retard the reproduction of viral RNA, and prednisone. This is the only combination of drugs that worked when my cat was in FELV crisis and had a haematocrit result of 5 (with the reference range being something like 25 to 35, off the top of my head). I had tried LTCI and interferon and even though I tested his blood weekly, I saw no change/improvement at all in his red cell count, haematocrit, hemoglobin, platelets, etc. It was only when I stumbled upon the use of Winstrol (he was already on prednisone and Doxy, but they don?t work without the Winstrol), that I saw a steady and sustained improvement in his haematology numbers.<br>
<br>
<br>
The scandal, Randy, is that Winstrol is one of the steroids often implicated in athletic doping scandals, so vets seem to be gun shy about prescribing it. Also, some years ago, a very poorly conducted experiment was published where cats where given 10 times the recommended dose of Winstrol as a ?loading dose? and developed liver problems. So between these two driving forces, you have a lot of uneducated vets who will either think you are ?unethical? for asking for the Winstrol, or believe it is a harmful drug thanks to the stupid scientific study that was published. Plus, even where they are willing to prescribe it (like in Sherri?s case) they don?t recognize the need to couple it with the Doxycycline, and thus, you do get a weak boost of the red cells, etc., but the virus is reproducing rampantly, so in the end, the virus wins. (Then, of course, not recognizing the need for the Doxy, those same vets will view the use of Winstrol as a failure and not likely use it again.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Other medications that might increase red cell production are erythropoietin and related medications, but erythropoietin does not encourage bone marrow growth and development as Winstrol does. Thus, if the progenitor cells in the bone marrow, which produce red cells, white cells and platelets, have been killed by the virus (or converted to infected cells, spewing out more virus) then the erythropoietin will not be effective because it simply encourages those progenitor cells to produce more red cells. However, because they can?t and thus cannot respond to the stimulation by erythropoietin. (If your cat doesn?t have FELV, and has anemia because of some other cause, then the erythropoietin might work.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Winstrol stimulates bone production (experiments have used it effectively in older adults for osteoporosis), and I don?t anything else which fits the bill.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cats with FELV often also have lymphocytes lining the intestinal walls, or other problems with moving food through the intestines. My cat did, and that resulted in (a) loss of appetite (b) vomiting and (c) slow bowel movements. I therefore found it necessary to add a ? tablet of metoclompromine (Reglen) before meal times twice a day. Worked like a charm.<br>
<br>
<br>
This cocktail then brought my baby back from the brink of certain death. I had given him blood transfusions with his anemia, but that is only a short-term solution and he wasn?t producing any red cells (reticulocyte count was basically zero ? this is a measure of new red cell production and should be increased in cases of anemia to demonstrate that the body is producing red cells to compensate for the reduced red cell count). He had had a reaction with his last blood transfusion, and so no more transfusions were possible since the next one would kill him, and I was all out of options as I watched his haematocrit level drop lower and lower, week by week. It had dropped to 10 when I ?discovered? an old bottle of Winstrol in my drawer.<br>
<br>
<br>
Whew. Guess how many times I have given this speech??<br>
<br>
<br>
Amani<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Felvtalk [mailto:<a href="mailto:felvtalk-bounces@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk-bounces@felin<wbr>eleukemia.org</a>] On Behalf Of Randy Henke<br>
Sent: December-16-16 9:15 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org" target="_blank">felvtalk@felineleukemia.org</a> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Questioning FELV diagnosis<br>
<br>
<br>
It's interesting that our vet was very hesitant about even prescribing Prednisone because he is afraid it will suppress her immunity to secondary infections. I know that is a risk. Would adding Winstrol suppress her immune system even further? I'm very confused about how to proceed.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Ardy Robertson > wrote:<br>
<br>
If I can chime in on Winstrol, it did wonders on my Tigger to get his bloodwork up. I only wish I had started it sooner, along with the prednisolone and doxycycline.<br>
<br>
Best of luck!<br>
<br>
Ardy<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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