[Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol

[Amani Oakley]

Sherri

I wouldn't recommend you run the liver enzymes. If they rise (and they often do) it will cause your vet to try to get you to stop the Winstrol.

I was running a full biochemistry profile along with the full haematology profile on Zander. So tests like ALP, AST, ALT, TBili and DBili are indicators of liver function. With Zander, they rose sharply, but there was simply no other option but to continue. I had done all my research, tried out the two most likely new and promising therapies (LTCI and Interferon) and they were not at all (I mean AT ALL) helpful. So, discontinuing the Winstrol meant certain death for Zander. I am so glad I ignored the liver enzymes. They settled down on their own, and Zander never had any liver problems after almost a FULL YEAR on Winstrol.

I had another cat with a nasal sarcoma, who was 16 when she got the sarcoma and a tiny skinny thing. I put her on Winstrol because again, there were no really good options. Again, I had a great response, with it upping her appetite dramatically, and keeping the sarcoma in a shrunken state with far less discharge and swelling than prior to the administration of the Winstrol. Her liver enzymes went through the roof and the vet (a very good friend of mine who is the head of vet oncology and a brilliant man) knowing how I feel about Winstrol, just asked if I would agree to discontinue the Winstrol to see if the liver enzymes would reduce. (Very gently. He knew he was on thin ice.)  I did, for a few weeks, then put her back on. She lived to age 19 with that sarcoma, because the Winstrol kept her eating, and happy and strong.

One of the smart folks on this chatline, recently sent me what was likely the stupid vet research publication which likely started the whole "liver" scare. Look it up because I cannot attach it to this email as it will not go through. The title is, "Hepatotoxicity of stanozolol in cats" by Kenneth R. Harkin, et. al. in JAVMA, Vol. 217, No. 5, September 1, 2000. Bizarrely, in this study, the authors put the cats on a "loading dose" of 25 mg intramuscularly, then 2 mg a day by mouth, every 12 hours. So, just for starters, you see that for some reason, they started the cats on TEN TIMES the normal dose, and them kept them on at least TWO TIMES the normal dose for the rest of the study. Even then, here are some telltale pieces of information:


1.      They start the paper by discussing abuse of stanozolol "by young male athletes" - one has to wonder what the relevance might be.

2.      They state, that, "these results (of hepatotoxicity in cats) were unexpected, because to our knowledge, stanozolol has not been reported to be hepatotoxic in cats".

Despite overloading the cats with bizarrely high levels of stanozolol, they reported that most of the signs of hepatotoxicity (that being the high liver enzymes) disappeared after the stanozolol was discontinued.

The levels of stanozolol used on these cats were the same as a previous study which found stanozolol effective and helpful in treating sled dogs. THEY USED THE SAME DOSE IN CATS AS THEY DID FOR THE SLED DOGS!!

That's like saying that a study where people were given the equivalent of 20 aspirin intramuscularly, and then given double the recommended aspirin dose daily for several weeks, proves that aspirin is bad for you. Or how about giving a group of people the same dose of medication as they give to treat a rhinoceros, and deciding that the medication is toxic to humans, based on that study?

I don't know what the purpose of this study was, but I am disappointed that so many vets just "heard" that Winstrol causes liver damage, but never bothered to actually read the literature. Anyone reading this paper, with any modicum of scientific training, would be able to spot the serious problems with it. The fact that it was coupled with the preamble regarding the abuse of athletes using steroids, just seems to suggest that the study was intended to bury Winstrol, so no one could get their hands on it - including those cheating athletes. (I keep saying, if Winstrol is NOT effective, then why are athletes who take it, considered to be cheating????)

I gave the paper recently to my vet, who is very much in my corner and thrilled with my many successes with my cats. She was very appreciative and told me she would read it. That is what a good vet looks like.

(TIME TO CLIMB OFF THE SOAP BOX AGAIN.)

Amani



From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Sherri Godschalk
Sent: September-30-16 7:54 PM
To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol

Oh my gosh Amani! What an incredible story. The chances that he could survive from where he was. I cannot imagine the joy you felt when you saw his gums were pink. What a long road for the both of you. Says so much about you. So your vet knew of the treatment but was afraid of it. Hopefully the next FELV cat they saw in their office, they remembered the success that you experienced and prescribed accordingly. How lucky that you had the knowledge you did, the confidence to respectfully challenge the ones telling you there was no hope. Zander was one lucky kitty.

I can't say that I don't worry about the side effects of the drugs Bogey is taking. But I understand that he has to survive THIS first. I am not so sure that my vet has anything against using Doxycicline as much as he just doesn't see a need for it yet. What test was run on Zander to check the liver enzymes you mentioned?

Getting the message out about this drug and it's positive response in FELV anemic cats is something I truly hope happens. When my vet gave me this pill for Bogey, I had no idea what it was. He told me it was a steroid that body builders take. I ran home, gave the cat the pill, sat down at my computer and Googled "Felv Stanzolol" and this site came up. I have written a bit about my experience thus far here, and on a Facebook page for FIV and FELV cats. But it makes me feel bad for the people that read it and get hopeful, go to their vets and get the "doesn't help", "bad for livers" or just "No". I know it is very early in Bogey's treatment and she may not continue to get better with just what she is taking. But I am glad for every moment that I have with her. I hope I have hundreds and thousands more.

Thanks for sharing the story about Zander. Amazing.





From: Felvtalk <felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org>> on behalf of Amani Oakley <aoakley at oakleylegal.com<mailto:aoakley at oakleylegal.com>>
Reply-To: <felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>>
Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM
To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>" <felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>>
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol

Yes, Sherri. There's no question this is a frustrating, devastating disease, made far far worse by vets lacking in knowledge, and committed to just putting down FeLV cats. Sherri, Zander's haematocrit was actually down to 5 initially, and he had to be placed in an oxygen tent because his haemoglobin was so low his body would have had trouble transporting oxygen to the cells in his body. I gave him blood transfusions initially, but could see that they were only temporary stopgaps, and after the second one, he had a reaction, so I was told he couldn't have any more transfusions, as the next one would kill him. As a former medical technologist, I knew that to be true. (In Canada, they didn't test for blood type at the time - don't know if they do now.)

After trying Zander on a course of Interferon and a course of LTCI (or whatever it is called - I always mix up the letters), I totally by chance, opened up my drawer and rummaged through it in desperation because his haematocrit had dropped from a high of 16 after his second blood transfusion, back down to 10, and I knew I was going to lose him soon. He was on Doxycycline and Prednisone, but it wasn't doing a thing for his cell lines, which were all depressed - with the most critical being the red cells/haematocrit numbers. Imagine my total surprise when, after I gave him some old Winstrol I found in the drawer, I started noticing his ears and gums taking on a pink hue and when I tested him 3 days after starting the Winstrol, the haematocrit had gone up instead of steadily down.

My surprise grew, and finally overcame my skepticism (I mean, really, what are the odds that I discovered a cure???) and Zander's results kept slowly but steadily rising for months and months until he was finally out of danger and then into the normal reference range for all his results.

Then, after a year, when I told the internal specialist who had very kindly told me there was no hope with this disease, imagine my shock that he KNEW about Winstrol and said that I had gone "old-school" and this has been something they used to use for this disease until "word" spread that the drug could cause liver damage!

Frankly, after reading about all the experiences of so many people in this situation, I realize how lucky I am. Because of my background in health care, my very long relationship with my vet clinic (which I would often diagnose things before them and/or I would identify problems they hadn't seen) AND very likely, my prickly personality/refusal to take no for an answer, my vets were good enough to back off and let me do my thing. They recognized that, OBVIOUSLY, they had nothing to offer me if the Winstrol didn't work. They faithfully tried the Interferon and the LTCI at my request, and ran the weekly bloodwork, and agreed that there were no positive effects. They saw the positive effects with the WInstrol. They tried on a few occasions to talk me into discontinuing or reducing the Winstrol when the liver enzymes increased, but after what Zander had been through - being on the brink of death - I was not open to discussing this option. On a few occasions I would reduce the Winstrol briefly, only to see his haematology drop. I would then hold my breath for a few days or weeks, to let the liver enzymes settle a bit, before getting him back on the WInstrol. However, I don't think any of the vets were prepared to argue with the obvious success. They had seen the unbelievably low haematocrit and red cell count, for themselves.

I just don't know how we can get this message across to mainstream vets. This is NOT an evil drug which must be avoided at all costs. I wish I could address a vet convention. If I had a LITTLE TIME, I would write a paper and submit it for publication in a vet publication.

I get angered when I hear about all the trouble everyone has, getting some Winstrol for their cats, despite the desperate circumstances the cats are in.

Sherri, the odd thing for you is that your vet is okay with the Winstrol but not the Doxycycline. Really bizarre!

No wonder underground markets flourish. It just shouldn't be this hard to be at least given an opportunity and a bit of hope to save our cats.

Amani
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