[Felvtalk] Removing an Eye....

[ROBERT CHAPEL]

 On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 03:29 AM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org 
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>       (Ardy Robertson)
>    2. Re: FW:  Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
>       (dlgegg at windstream.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 21:57:29 -0500
> From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued 
> Improvement for Bogey on
> 	Stanzolol
> Message-ID: <005501d21deb$0c645df0$252d19d0$@centurytel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Well I live in Osseo, Wisconsin ? and the Osseo Vet Clinic prescribed 
> it for me. They did not have a source for it, but I located one online 
> for them, and the vet who is no longer there, would fill in a form 
> online and order it, then I paid for it with a credit card and it 
> shipped to my house with one refill. After that refill, the vet had to 
> request it online again. The compounding pharmacy I found online was 
> wonderful ? they are called Diamond Back Drugs. I believe it is 
> www.diamondbackdrugs.com   and they are physically located in Arizona.
>
>
> The Animal Wellness Center in Mondovi, Wisconsin SAID they would get 
> it for me, only after I begged for it for weeks, but then they never 
> quite got around to finding a source for it, and when I gave them the 
> name of the Diamond Back Drug Company, they never quite got around to 
> ordering it. So I changed to the Osseo Vet Clinic.
>
>
> I do believe the other vets at the Osseo Vet Clinic would prescribe it 
> for me because they were all aware Tigger was ?using? :) and they knew 
> that he made fantastic progress while on it. I just didn?t get him 
> started on it earlier enough and I did not know to give him 
> Doxycycline until it was too late. I think I would demand Doxycycline 
> for him if I had it to do over again because I believe Amani is 
> probably the most knowledgeable about this dreadful disease that the 
> vets have no answer for other than euthanization.
>
>
> That?s my 2 cents worth.
>
> Ardy
>
>
>
> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf 
> Of Amy Glunt
> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 9:07 PM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
> Stanzolol
>
>
> I think it would be really great if we could all compile a list of 
> vets that prescribe the stanzolol, perhaps by state. That would be a 
> really great resource for people who are looking for this information. 
> I'm calling around my city tomorrow to see if I can find any vets who 
> will prescribe it for my cat.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Sherri Godschalk  > wrote:
>
> Had to shorten this?hope it doesn?t post twice as it went to the 
> moderator because of size.
>
>
> Good to know about the liver test. I will NOT mention it to my vet.
>
> Since this whole process has started for Bogey and I, I often wonder 
> what logic is used when saying that the side affects from taking the 
> Stanzolol are liver issues, but the side effect of not taking it, is 
> death. I know for me personally, if I was sick and facing this 
> decision, I know what I would do without question. Believe it or not, 
> I read that exact paper you are describing when Bogey was first 
> prescribed the Stanzolol. (Google search) I felt pretty defeated 
> (although many of the terms were over my head) after reading it. I did 
> not notice the dosages though. Doesn?t sound like a very scientific 
> study does it. Maybe we should start our own. Post the names of vets 
> who are willing to prescribe it as well as the results each person has 
> with their pet that is taking it. There again, I am way out in front 
> of myself here because Bogey is not thriving but she did just run into 
> the room with a Q-tip in her mouth (her favorite toy) and 60 days ago 
> she could barely walk into the r
>  oom without laying down. She has also steadily gained weight. Over a 
> pound which doesn?t sound like much but she barely weighed 5 pounds to 
> begin with. Life is still happening here.
>
>
> It does seem like there is secrecy surrounding vets prescribing 
> Stanzolol. Almost like I am scoring some heroin or something. (no I am 
> not a drug user) From what you found with your other cat, clearly this 
> could be a positive choice for inoperable tumors, and or life 
> extending treatment for senior pets. At any rate, I feel luckier each 
> day that my current vet values the life of my cat enough to try to 
> save her. It sounds like your vet is terrific and that you have a 
> great, long relationship with them. I hope to have the same, one day.
>
>
> Sherri
>
>
> From: Felvtalk  > on behalf of Amani Oakley  >
> Reply-To:  >
> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:29 PM
> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  "  >
> Subject: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
> Stanzolol
>
>
> Sherri
>
>
> I wouldn?t recommend you run the liver enzymes. If they rise (and they 
> often do) it will cause your vet to try to get you to stop the 
> Winstrol.
>
>
> I was running a full biochemistry profile along with the full 
> haematology profile on Zander. So tests like ALP, AST, ALT, TBili and 
> DBili are indicators of liver function. With Zander, they rose 
> sharply, but there was simply no other option but to continue. I had 
> done all my research, tried out the two most likely new and promising 
> therapies (LTCI and Interferon) and they were not at all (I mean AT 
> ALL) helpful. So, discontinuing the Winstrol meant certain death for 
> Zander. I am so glad I ignored the liver enzymes. They settled down on 
> their own, and Zander never had any liver problems after almost a FULL 
> YEAR on Winstrol.
>
>
> I had another cat with a nasal sarcoma, who was 16 when she got the 
> sarcoma and a tiny skinny thing. I put her on Winstrol because again, 
> there were no really good options. Again, I had a great response, with 
> it upping her appetite dramatically, and keeping the sarcoma in a 
> shrunken state with far less discharge and swelling than prior to the 
> administration of the Winstrol. Her liver enzymes went through the 
> roof and the vet (a very good friend of mine who is the head of vet 
> oncology and a brilliant man) knowing how I feel about Winstrol, just 
> asked if I would agree to discontinue the Winstrol to see if the liver 
> enzymes would reduce. (Very gently. He knew he was on thin ice.)  I 
> did, for a few weeks, then put her back on. She lived to age 19 with 
> that sarcoma, because the Winstrol kept her eating, and happy and 
> strong.
>
>
> One of the smart folks on this chatline, recently sent me what was 
> likely the stupid vet research publication which likely started the 
> whole ?liver? scare. Look it up because I cannot attach it to this 
> email as it will not go through. The title is, ?Hepatotoxicity of 
> stanozolol in cats? by Kenneth R. Harkin, et. al. in JAVMA, Vol. 217, 
> No. 5, September 1, 2000. Bizarrely, in this study, the authors put 
> the cats on a ?loading dose? of 25 mg intramuscularly, then 2 mg a day 
> by mouth, every 12 hours. So, just for starters, you see that for some 
> reason, they started the cats on TEN TIMES the normal dose, and them 
> kept them on at least TWO TIMES the normal dosefor the rest of the 
> study. Even then, here are some telltale pieces of information:
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 2:29:17 -0500
> From: To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW:  Continued Improvement for Bogey on
> 	Stanzolol
> Message-ID: <20161004032917.EGY3O.934.root at pamxwww04-z01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> With some vets we have to get aggressive for the sake of our babies. 
> Either that or change vets.  My problem is that being in a small town, 
> we don't have may vets to choose from.  My current vet seems more 
> agreeable than the last one plus she is not always out on a farm call 
> when I need her.
>
>
> ---- Ardy Robertson  wrote:
>> Hi Sherri - when you go in again why don't you just ask the vet to 
>> humor you
>> and let you try doxycycline just so that you can feel like you tried
>> everything for Bogey. Maybe he will give in if you keep asking. When 
>> I
>> changed vets during Tigger's treatment I told them flat out that I 
>> was going
>> to be a steady customer for a while and I wanted all 4 of the vets to 
>> be
>> aware of Tigger's condition and to please give me what I needed. I 
>> told them
>> that Amani was helping me and basically that I wanted to call the 
>> shots and
>> they were okay with it (to my surprise). I am normally a very 
>> mild-mannered
>> person but when it came to my Tigger Baby's life, I was bold!!  Thank 
>> you
>> again Amani - we almost succeeded with Tigger, and if I had gotten 
>> the
>> Winstrol sooner I think we would have :)
>>
>>
>> Ardy
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf 
>> Of
>> Sherri Godschalk
>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 6:54 PM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>> Stanzolol
>>
>>
>> Oh my gosh Amani! What an incredible story. The chances that he could
>> survive from where he was. I cannot imagine the joy you felt when you 
>> saw
>> his gums were pink. What a long road for the both of you. Says so 
>> much about
>> you. So your vet knew of the treatment but was afraid of it. 
>> Hopefully the
>> next FELV cat they saw in their office, they remembered the success 
>> that you
>> experienced and prescribed accordingly. How lucky that you had the 
>> knowledge
>> you did, the confidence to respectfully challenge the ones telling 
>> you there
>> was no hope. Zander was one lucky kitty.
>>
>>
>> I can't say that I don't worry about the side effects of the drugs 
>> Bogey is
>> taking. But I understand that he has to survive THIS first. I am not 
>> so sure
>> that my vet has anything against using Doxycicline as much as he just
>> doesn't see a need for it yet. What test was run on Zander to check 
>> the
>> liver enzymes you mentioned?
>>
>>
>> Getting the message out about this drug and it's positive response in 
>> FELV
>> anemic cats is something I truly hope happens. When my vet gave me 
>> this pill
>> for Bogey, I had no idea what it was. He told me it was a steroid 
>> that body
>> builders take. I ran home, gave the cat the pill, sat down at my 
>> computer
>> and Googled "Felv Stanzolol" and this site came up. I have written a 
>> bit
>> about my experience thus far here, and on a Facebook page for FIV and 
>> FELV
>> cats. But it makes me feel bad for the people that read it and get 
>> hopeful,
>> go to their vets and get the "doesn't help", "bad for livers" or just 
>> "No".
>> I know it is very early in Bogey's treatment and she may not continue 
>> to get
>> better with just what she is taking. But I am glad for every moment 
>> that I
>> have with her. I hope I have hundreds and thousands more.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for sharing the story about Zander. Amazing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk  >
>> Reply-To:
>>>
>> Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM
>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  "
>>>
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on 
>> Stanzolol
>>
>>
>> Yes, Sherri. There's no question this is a frustrating, devastating 
>> disease,
>> made far far worse by vets lacking in knowledge, and committed to 
>> just
>> putting down FeLV cats. Sherri, Zander's haematocrit was actually 
>> down to 5
>> initially, and he had to be placed in an oxygen tent because his 
>> haemoglobin
>> was so low his body would have had trouble transporting oxygen to the 
>> cells
>> in his body. I gave him blood transfusions initially, but could see 
>> that
>> they were only temporary stopgaps, and after the second one, he had a
>> reaction, so I was told he couldn't have any more transfusions, as 
>> the next
>> one would kill him. As a former medical technologist, I knew that to 
>> be
>> true. (In Canada, they didn't test for blood type at the time - don't 
>> know
>> if they do now.)
>>
>>
>> After trying Zander on a course of Interferon and a course of LTCI 
>> (or
>> whatever it is called - I always mix up the letters), I totally by 
>> chance,
>> opened up my drawer and rummaged through it in desperation because 
>> his
>> haematocrit had dropped from a high of 16 after his second blood
>> transfusion, back down to 10, and I knew I was going to lose him 
>> soon. He
>> was on Doxycycline and Prednisone, but it wasn't doing a thing for 
>> his cell
>> lines, which were all depressed - with the most critical being the 
>> red
>> cells/haematocrit numbers. Imagine my total surprise when, after I 
>> gave him
>> some old Winstrol I found in the drawer, I started noticing his ears 
>> and
>> gums taking on a pink hue and when I tested him 3 days after starting 
>> the
>> Winstrol, the haematocrit had gone up instead of steadily down.
>>
>>
>> My surprise grew, and finally overcame my skepticism (I mean, really, 
>> what
>> are the odds that I discovered a cure???) and Zander's results kept 
>> slowly
>> but steadily rising for months and months until he was finally out of 
>> danger
>> and then into the normal reference range for all his results.
>>
>>
>> Then, after a year, when I told the internal specialist who had very 
>> kindly
>> told me there was no hope with this disease, imagine my shock that he 
>> KNEW
>> about Winstrol and said that I had gone "old-school" and this has 
>> been
>> something they used to use for this disease until "word" spread that 
>> the
>> drug could cause liver damage!
>>
>>
>> Frankly, after reading about all the experiences of so many people in 
>> this
>> situation, I realize how lucky I am. Because of my background in 
>> health
>> care, my very long relationship with my vet clinic (which I would 
>> often
>> diagnose things before them and/or I would identify problems they 
>> hadn't
>> seen) AND very likely, my prickly personality/refusal to take no for 
>> an
>> answer, my vets were good enough to back off and let me do my thing. 
>> They
>> recognized that, OBVIOUSLY, they had nothing to offer me if the 
>> Winstrol
>> didn't work. They faithfully tried the Interferon and the LTCI at my
>> request, and ran the weekly bloodwork, and agreed that there were no
>> positive effects. They saw the positive effects with the WInstrol. 
>> They
>> tried on a few occasions to talk me into discontinuing or reducing 
>> the
>> Winstrol when the liver enzymes increased, but after what Zander had 
>> been
>> through - being on the brink of death - I was not open to discussing 
>> this
>> option. On a few occasions I would reduce the Winstrol briefly, only 
>> to see
>> his haematology drop. I would then hold my breath for a few days or 
>> weeks,
>> to let the liver enzymes settle a bit, before getting him back on the
>> WInstrol. However, I don't think any of the vets were prepared to 
>> argue with
>> the obvious success. They had seen the unbelievably low haematocrit 
>> and red
>> cell count, for themselves.
>>
>>
>> I just don't know how we can get this message across to mainstream 
>> vets.
>> This is NOT an evil drug which must be avoided at all costs. I wish I 
>> could
>> address a vet convention. If I had LITTLE TIME, I would write a paper 
>> and
>> submit it for publication in a vet publication.
>>
>> I get angered when I hear about all the trouble everyone has, getting 
>> some
>> Winstrol for their cats, despite the desperate circumstances the cats 
>> are
>> in.
>>
>>
>> Sherri, the odd thing for you is that your vet is okay with the 
>> Winstrol but
>> not the Doxycycline. Really bizarre!
>>
>> No wonder underground markets flourish. It just shouldn't be this 
>> hard to be
>> at least given an opportunity and a bit of hope to save our cats.
>>
>>
>> Amani
>>
>>  My " problem" guy...  Yogi..... is not progressing much with his 
>> Corneal Ulcer and I have found a vet that is willing to remove his 
>> eye for a VERY reasonable price ( Hundreds less than the quotes that 
>> I have gotten in my area.....  I neglected to ask if there was an 
>> abbreviated version that might not be as extensive as the full 
>> removal of Eyeball and surrounding musculature given the extreme 
>> difference in price....

Any of you who has had a Cats eye removed have any recollection of what 
you might have paid....  I don't want to miss the opportunity to get 
this done but am shakey about it given his debilitated status( I could 
lose him)...at the same time ...the eye does not appear to be improving 
much and even if it does improve the odds favor the problems returning ( 
if he were not FeLV I would be more inclined to stick it out until the 
Ulcer healed.... But I am fearful that I might lose the opportunity to 
have it done at a reasonable price if I tryto keep him on the road to 
healing the right eye with his current medications*( He's already 
developing some sinus complications given the proximity of the eye to 
sinus tracts and the need to drain off fluid from the eye....     Anyone 
have a recollection of how their cats reacted to surgical removal  of an 
eye....  eg.. Recovery time.....thanks










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