[Felvtalk] Winstrol

[Amani Oakley]

Hi Robert

Yes - I have been posting for some time regarding the Winstrol/Doxy combination, and I have already stated that it is my belief that the reason that the vets (and human doctors) are so negative about Winstrol is that it is associated with doping scandals in sports. It's beyond stupid, in my view.  All kinds of medication can be abused, but at the rate that athletes use Winstrol, they would have to take 100 or 1000 2 mg tablets EVERY DAY, because they use it at 1000 times doses recommended for human use. And by the way, they are pretty much fine, even at those doses. If you do the research, you will find what I have found - there are no credible scientific findings linking use of Winstrol in athletes - even at those levels - with heart disease, liver disease, or even "roid rage", for goodness sakes. This is one of the reasons athletes stopped listening to the medical/scientific community about the dangers of performance-enhancing steroids. The athletes are taking them at levels at astronomically high levels and they should be quite dead if they were that dangerous. They continue to take them because they DO enhance strength, muscle, endurance, etc. There are some side effects like light facial hair growth, etc., but nothing like the scare-mongering you hear from the medical and scientific communities.

And so, our cats are being denied these effective anabolic steroids like Winstrol because Canadian Ben Johnson was stripped of his Olympic Gold Medal in the 1988 Summer Olympics for testing positive for it! When my mom was deteriorating badly from cancer, again my research showed that Winstrol can build muscle mass, increase appetite, increase red cell production (she was very anemic), and the palliative doctor said, "That's the Ben Johnson steroid." He then went on to say that as a palliative doctor, his job was to neither hasten death nor to slow it down, and giving my mom Winstrol would slow it down. You'd think that would be a good thing, but apparently not.

Scientists won't research it for the same reason. It is just the most bizarre situation, when the alternative is death. I can tell you that my experience with Winstrol is what really opened my eyes to the fact that we are naïve to believe that when we get sick (or our cats do), that the doctors/vets know all the credible available options and will let you know of them so you can make an informed choice. With my cat, I stumbled onto the use of Winstrol after trying interferon, LTCI, blood transfusions - all of which cost me more than $10,000. Winstrol costs very very little and was much more effective than all the other treatments I had attempted. My cat was dying, I was out of options and yet no one told me about Winstrol. When I tried the Winstrol (which I had in my cupboard for years for another cat) and got the great response that I did, I thought I had "discovered" a new use for it. I then told the internal medicine specialist who had basically told me that there were no more options for Zander, he told me that I had gone "old school", and they used to use Winstrol years before but stopped when it was believed that it caused liver damage. No one had looked again at it after the Ben Johnson scandal. 

I have used it for cats with FIP, with a spinal lesion, with nasal sarcoma (in a 16 year old cat), ligament injury in the knee which required surgery (but didn’t after use of the Winstrol) and now I am using it on a cat with puffy pads (pillow pads) which I just discovered was due to a proliferation of plasma cells, probably related to either a FeLV or a FIP infection. The only circumstance I have used it where it didn’t help me at all was in a cat with renal failure and after her death, I figured out that she had probably contracted feline morbillivirus from the vet clinic, which caused tubulointerstitial nephritis. (I knew it was something infectious because two of my cats came down with a serious illness after I had taken both in at the same time to the vets. One pulled through. One rallied for a while and I thought we had beaten whatever it was, but she got sick again and we discovered her creatinine was sky high and she died despite everything we tried.)

Amani



-----Original Message-----
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT CHAPEL
Sent: May-16-16 2:30 PM
To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Winstrol


I'm new to the list and trying to catch up with some of the threads...particularly with regard to Winstrol/Doxy combination...   Are any of you actually using this combination currently??... If so, are you administering it Sub Q, IM or orally??   Also wondering if the pushback from vets with regard to prescribing it has to do with the fact that it is one of the more popular anabolics used by body builders and athletes....??

Also...... anyone have any information re: Eye Problems in FeLV+ Kitties ( other than the frequently occurring sequlae to Herpes Virus infection)....   I recently adopted 2 FeLV+ youngsters ( 7 and 9 months) from the shelter where I volunteer ( couldn't stand the idea of their living their lives in isolation in a 3x3 enclosure)..   I bit off a LOT more than I anticipated as one has not been fully well since the day I brought him home but, until recently, he was eating Heartily and playing mightily despite a chronic URI....  Last week he developed some cloudiness in his  L eye lenses and what appear to be burst capillaries....  The Vet ( I allowed the shelter to pay for this particular visit as I will go broke if I bring him as often as I might be inclined.... the cats are uninsurable by all the pet insurance companies I contacted).... that vet offered little in the way of DX...just said " sometimes this happens to FeLV+ cats and prescribed Triple Antibiotic Ocular Ointment with Cortisone and Amoxi 2x daily ( running 103.2 temp).....  Frankly I think the guy hardly even looked at my guy and I am going to have to take him elsewhere on my own dime again to get a real DX and Tx suggestions.( if I go on the shelters dime he is presented as a foster and only the shelter are privy to detailed explanations and even then very little as they get a very discounted rate)....   This is my first experience with FeLV and I have been reading vocaciously....   I am not one who is going to employ heroic measures to keep my guys alive unless they won't cause ANY discomfort to them...   I'm already providing them a much better life than they might have had and a LOT more love and attention than they ever would have known.....  Still.... his eye looks " angry " and I have no way to tell if it is causing him pain......    Making an appt. to have blood work done to get a baseline on his HCT,WBC's and Platelets.... Gums appear to still be red and his paw pads have not gotten lighter so I am hopeful that he is not severely anemic.... But have NO idea what might have caused the blood in his eye.....  also there is some clear discharge which I wipe away several times during the day.......     Any thoughts welcome...

Bob
Warwick NY

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 01:00 PM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org
wrote:

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>    1. Re: Amani thoughts for Winstrol (dlgegg at windstream.net)
>    2. Re: Kokonut Felv+ (dlgegg at windstream.net)
>    3. Re: Cat Sanctuary (dlgegg at windstream.net)
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:55:23 -0500
> From: To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Amani thoughts for Winstrol
> Message-ID: <20160516115523.U40WC.1807.root at pamxwww03-z01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> GOOD VET!
>
> ---- Rachel Dagner  wrote:
>> When I brought Tucker home from work he had an infection on his leg 
>> and I took him to get treated, he had a chip so we found out he 
>> didn't need shots for six months. When I took him for shots she me if 
>> I wanted the felv vaccine because I used to let him go outside too.
>> We tested him first and it came back positive :(. She told me he 
>> could live three months or a long normal life there was just no 
>> telling. She never even said the word euthanize.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 15, 2016, at 5:45 PM,   wrote:
>>
>> I really feel blessed because my vet said 2 choices, euthansia or 
>> keep Annie, treat her and hope.  I would have walked out the door and 
>> never returned if he only had one solution.  Find another vet.
>>
>>
>> ---- Ardy Robertson  wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> If I can jump in on the website idea, I believe that would help 
>>> people, especially people like me who had no experience with FeLV.
>>> Suddenly you are told one of your kitties has FeLV virus, and you 
>>> are being told there are no options other than euthanasia. My vets 
>>> even wanted me to go home and get my other two cats and bring them 
>>> in that day for euthanizing!  I said ?no?!  If there was a website 
>>> that sort of listed a protocol for treating the FeLV crises, that 
>>> would be great! One of our vets then offered Interferon and while I 
>>> was placing my hopes on that treatment, believing that the vets 
>>> wanted Tigger to live and pull out of the crisis he was in, valuable 
>>> time was slipping away and Tigg?s blood counts were taking a dive.
>>> They didn?t really explain anything about the blood test results.  I 
>>> basically had to learn everything from reading online.  For instance 
>>> I did not know that stress can bring on a crisis.  We had brought a 
>>> stray into our house, and she was running up behi
>  nd Tigger and biting him hard. His stress from that was high.  I also 
> learned from reading online that while the FeLV virus spreads to other 
> cats, it is hardly ever spread to a cat over 11 months of age because 
> their immune system can usually defend them from it.  That is also how 
> I found this group online.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It was when Amani explained that Winstrol has been shown to turn the 
>>> bone marrow back on to producing blood cells, that I decided to take 
>>> a chance on it. Then much more time was lost trying to find a way to 
>>> get Winstrol, also known as Stanozolol.  I found a source in Canada, 
>>> but they were not able to ship into the US.  I live in Wisconsin, so 
>>> I had to find a source in the US.  Again, as a novice, I did not 
>>> have the information I needed to make any meaningful decisions. I 
>>> happen to be computer-literate so I was able to do the searching for 
>>> ways to get Winstrol etc., I shudder to think what a loving cat 
>>> owner who just doesn?t happen to be able to find things online 
>>> easily, would do! So the need for information is critical??both for 
>>> cat owners, and eventually to change the minds of the veterinary 
>>> community! I hope one day, they will actually SUGGEST it to cat 
>>> parents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If a website could ever become a reality, I would gladly share 
>>> Tigger?s treatment details, along with his blood test results. Even 
>>> though we eventually lost him, I feel I was given some additional 
>>> time with him ? and it was good quality time with him feeling very 
>>> good, and playful most of the time. I also feel he may have pulled 
>>> through this particular crisis if I had started this treatment 
>>> regime as soon as I knew he was FeLV positive. I could be wrong, but 
>>> I think the FeLV virus sometimes sits dormant in the cat, waiting 
>>> for some period of stress in the cat?s life, and then it pops up and 
>>> attacks in varying ways. If the owner is able to get the cat through 
>>> that particular crisis, then I think it sometimes backs off again, 
>>> possibly for very long periods, especially if the cat?s stress 
>>> levels can be kept low.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Ardy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Rachel Dagner
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 10:34 AM
>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Amani thoughts for Winstrol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have googled you, you are the only one on here that I can put a 
>>> face to a name! Can we post pictures when we send messages?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, not all lawyers are bad. Lol I am glad you do something you 
>>> believe in and that is fulfilling and helps people. Probably makes 
>>> all of the hours worth it. That and you love kitties and help people 
>>> on here with theirs when you have so little time tells me you are a 
>>> wonderful person with a huge heart and a beautiful soul.
>>>
>>>
>>> A web site would be awesome, somewhere to send people for 
>>> information instead of having to start over completely with a new 
>>> person. I know there are places where you can do free websites. I 
>>> have no idea how to do one.  But I am good at researching and 
>>> figuring things out, so it's something we could look at.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 14, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Amani Oakley  > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Rachel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I AM working today. I got up late since in fact, I was working until 
>>> about 4:30 a.m. That?s one thing about working for myself (with just 
>>> my husband as my partner). There is only this single perk I have and 
>>> that is that I don?t get up early since I generally work all night.
>>> I figure since I?m the boss, I don?t have to justify my hours to 
>>> anyone else! Of course, if I have to go to court for motions or 
>>> trials, then I have to get up early like the rest of the world, but 
>>> frankly, when I am in court, I generally don?t go to bed at all.
>>> Fun, eh? And to think that one of the reasons I left the field of 
>>> Medical Laboratory Technology and decided to be a lawyer was that I 
>>> hated having to do midnight shifts. Now, it?s not a ?shift?. I?m 
>>> just up ALL night and work all day TOO.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rachel, what I would love to do is have someone way smarter than me 
>>> when it comes to websites, develop a website where we can collect 
>>> the information about Winstrol. It is absolutely essential for us to 
>>> collect credible objective scientific information if we are going to 
>>> convince the vets to stop their ridiculous crusade against Winstrol.
>>> At worst, the drug may end up not being very effective in a 
>>> particular case, but it isn?t a demon drug to be avoided at all 
>>> costs, and frankly, I suspect that starting the Winstrol sooner 
>>> would likely give the best outcome. I think, generally speaking, 
>>> that when Winstrol is finally used, the cat is in pretty bad shape, 
>>> all else has failed, and we are asking for a miracle. I have a lot 
>>> of faith in Winstrol, but I know full well it doesn?t always work.
>>> However, I have used it and gotten amazing results in circumstances 
>>> where the vets have told me that there is nothing they have to 
>>> offer, and nothing will work. So why not try the Winstrol? I
>   simply don?t get the reluctance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to get Winstrol for everyone and I am trying to keep 
>>> track of anyone who lets me know they have used it and how they 
>>> obtained it. Unfortunately, often people will not respond with that 
>>> information when I ask. Perhaps they suddenly wonder if I am a fed, 
>>> posing as a cat-lover to trap unwary online folks, looking to save 
>>> their babies. And I wouldn?t want to expose my vet to criticism from 
>>> colleagues. I think she is less of a skeptic than most, because I 
>>> let her know what I have seen, but she came in mid-way during my 
>>> ordeal with Zander. She wasn?t the first vet who diagnosed him and 
>>> she never saw how bad he was because by then, I was at the ER 
>>> clinic. However, she allowed me to try various medications regimes, 
>>> and allowed me to take the weekly blood work while I assessed the 
>>> different treatment modalities to determine what was working and 
>>> what wasn?t. She saw Zander improve and was extremely impressed, but 
>>> you know, once he recovered from what was deemed to be a
>  death sentence, and after there was some daylight between the crisis 
> and his current excellent condition, vets started to suggest to me 
> that maybe it wasn?t FeLV after all. REALLY frustrating. There is no 
> way to convince someone who insists on not being convinced ? even with 
> weekly lab results in hand and before and after lab results. Anyway, 
> all that to say that if push comes to shove, I think my vet believes 
> that the Winstrol saved Zander, but if confronted by other vets, I am 
> sure she would temper her comments so she doesn?t appear foolish and 
> out of step to them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ardy was generous with her information about where she was able to 
>>> obtain the Winstrol and shared it with everyone, and it seems to me 
>>> that this may be the most promising route. The trouble isn?t getting 
>>> the Winstrol once you have a prescription ? the problem is getting 
>>> that prescription from your vet. Once you have that, you can order 
>>> the medication online from a compounding pharmacy and Ardy let us 
>>> know about the one she used which shipped to her from another state.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think each of us who wants to try out the Winstrol, needs to have 
>>> a talk with our vets, and explain to them that they are providing 
>>> little in the way of options except euthanasia, and a trial of 
>>> Winstrol is inexpensive and certainly not painful to the cat, so 
>>> rather than simply putting the cat down, why not trying the 
>>> Winstrol. Tell them that you understand the risk of liver damage, 
>>> and again, given the alternative, you accept and recognize that risk 
>>> but it is your understanding that while the liver enzymes often rise 
>>> with the use of Winstrol, there is no evidence or scientific trials 
>>> linking the use of Winstrol to any lasting liver damage. In the end, 
>>> you are in charge. Of course the vet can refuse to provide the 
>>> Winstrol and can decide he/she doesn?t want you for a client, so 
>>> remain calm and not belligerent if you want to avoid that outcome. I 
>>> would like to think that most vets, when faced with a logical, 
>>> measured decision to try a specific course of treatment, would a
>  ssist even if you don?t have their full support on the chosen 
> treatment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that once we have some helpful vet names, these also can be 
>>> shared so people know where they can go where they will get the 
>>> support they need for their FeLV cats. If anyone is situated near 
>>> Toronto, Ontario, Canada, I am happy to provide them with my vet?s 
>>> name and location. She is very kind, really cares about my cats, and 
>>> respects my input very much, so we get along just fine. I have moved 
>>> away from where the clinic is located and now have to travel close 
>>> to an hour to take my cats there, but I just feel up to going 
>>> through the same battle with another vet right now, so I?ll stick to 
>>> the ones who have known me for decades and respect my decisions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember too that I used a number of medications with the Winstrol. 
>>> I used prednisone, Winstrol, metoclopramide (Zander seemed to have 
>>> problems passing stool for a while and research online shows that 
>>> FeLV affects the intestinal walls as well ? metoclopramide was VERY 
>>> helpful to get the stool moving regularly and I believe without the 
>>> stool sitting still in one area of the intestinal tract, it took 
>>> away the environment which encouraged the intestinal walls to be 
>>> attacked and become inflamed), and Doxycycline. When I was trying 
>>> help Ardy with Tigger, her vet wanted Tigger on Convenia and so as 
>>> to ?pick our battles?, I told Ardy to accept the Convenia instead of 
>>> the Doxycyclne and we would play it by ear. I knew of course that 
>>> antibiotics don?t kill viruses, and I couldn?t remember why 
>>> Doxycycline was so important. I figured I had used it for covering 
>>> for potential secondary infections. However, after seeing some 
>>> blasts showing up on the blood work, I reconsidered and rememb
>  ered that Doxycycline actually works to block RNA synthesis, which is 
> how the virus reproduces, so while the Winstrol was working to restore 
> progenitor cells in the bone marrow to get new blood cells produced, 
> the Doxycycline was blocking the virus from continuing to reproduce 
> unchecked.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And Rachel ? I am not ?that? kind of a lawyer, so I can?t defend you 
>>> from a drug charge, but I do have contacts across the U.S., so I 
>>> promise to get you help should you end up in trouble because of my 
>>> preaching about Winstrol:). I am a medical malpractice lawyer - 
>>> Google me ? I figured I would put my scientific and medical 
>>> knowledge to good use when I left the medical field behind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See ? not all lawyers are bad!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Amani
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Rachel Dagner
>>> Sent: May-14-16 7:48 AM
>>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  Subject: [Felvtalk] Amani thoughts 
>>> for Winstrol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good Morning Amani,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope you are not working today, lawyers need QOL too!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been thinking about Winstrol and how hard it is for people to 
>>> get their vets to get on board and how hard it is to find it. So I 
>>> was thinking that maybe since you are the go to person for those of 
>>> us looking to go this route, you could start a file of those who 
>>> have tried it along with blood test results and notes or letters 
>>> from vets, along with places we find that make Winstrol. You could 
>>> then send the file to people to take with them to their vets. The 
>>> more vets that try it and see results the more likely they are to 
>>> try it again and share their experience with other vets.
>>>
>>>
>>> My second option would be that I could become a Winstrol kitty drug 
>>> dealer, and if I got caught you could defend me. Then we could write 
>>> a book about it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Option one sounds a little more promising though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rachel
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>>> Felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>>> http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.o
>>> rg
>>
>>
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:02:35 -0500
> From: To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Kokonut Felv+
> Message-ID: <20160516120235.PJPAU.1851.root at pamxwww03-z01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> RE:  stool, I give my guys about 1/4 teaspoon coconut oil every day. 
> They ask for it.  I don't have as much problem with hairballs since we 
> started this.
>
>
> ---- Amani Oakley  wrote:
>> Olivia
>>
>> It is a slow process. Once you get a bit of food into Kokonuts, she 
>> will hopefully start feeling better. Keep feeding her small amounts 
>> at multiple times of the day, if you can. Ask the vet to give her 
>> subcutaneous fluids or to show you how to do it at home (t is pretty 
>> easy). She is probably dehydrated as well as not eating well. Good 
>> for you to get the Pedialyte into her - that is exactly what she 
>> needs - electrolytes - but with subcutaneous fluids, there is a much 
>> faster uptake of the fluids, body-wide, then if it is given orally.
>> See if her stool is coming out regularly. If not, consider asking the 
>> vet for Metoclopromide. As I mentioned in another post, FeLV often 
>> negatively impacts the intestinal tract and causes the stool to slow 
>> down. The Metoclopromide helps to empty the stomach and increases 
>> peristaltic action which moves the stool along and this makes the cat 
>> feel a bit better after a meal.
>>
>> I strongly suggest the Winstrol if nothing else but to increase 
>> appetite and feeling better. That boost alone will go miles to 
>> helping your cat fight this battle.
>>
>> Amani
>