[Felvtalk] Curly's appetite...

Wed Dec 21 04:50:29 CST 2016

Thanks, Robert. I'll definitely know what to ask for if it comes to that.
Curly is still eating a significant amount of the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers
twice a day and she ate quite a bit of canned tuna last night. We'll be
starting the Winstrol tonight and will be waiting on the Doxy until Monday
because of our holiday schedule. I'm a little concerned about her
respiration rate which has crept up into the 40s.

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:52 AM, ROBERT CHAPEL <bchapel at optonline.net>
wrote:

> Randy....
>
> I'm not sure if the dosages of prednisone and Winstrol Curly will be
> getting are in the range that were formerly used for appetite stimulation
> in Kitties...( yes in the " old " days Corticosterioids AND anabolic
> Steroids were the go to drugs for appetite stimulation but often did more
> harm than good if not used judiciously.....    The other drug that Ardy was
> referring to was likely Cyproheptadine... an antihistamine that has since
> been replaced by Mirtazapine ( an antidepressant in humans) in part due to
> an easier dosing schedule( Daily to Q3days vs every 8 hours or so for the
> Cypro////   There are many who still swear by the Cyproheptadine( I'll
> write out the full word rather than cause the confusion of mixing it up
> with the antibiotic_ Cipro.     All of the above have worked a " little "
> for my different cats over the years.   Most recently I used Mirtazapine
> for my boy Yogi ( who has been on no less than 10 different Meds in the
> past few months and it worked well for a couple of days... but then not at
> all..... Fortunately the crisis passed and he went back to eating on his
> own when the pain in his eye subsided ( Now he appears to be developing
> Nasal complications due to all the damn Eye Drops I have to give him to
> keep his Uveitis at bay and clear up the Ocular Herpes that caused the
> whole mess.....  FeLV can be a challenge for some unlucky Kitties for
> sure....    Have any of the folks here who have used he combination of
> Prednisolone and Wintrol noticed increases in appetite??
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:46 PM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org
> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Bogey's Blood Test Today These look worse PG 2
>>       (Sherri Godschalk)
>>    2. Re: FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis (Ardy Robertson)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:25:39 -0500
>> From: Sherri Godschalk To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test
>> Today These look worse PG 2
>> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Well I am not sure he noticed some of the increases on page 2 here. It
>> seems
>> like all of these are going the wrong direction. She isn?t showing any
>> jaundice and her gait is much improved but still having some issues with
>> balance. I ask them to run the full battery of blood tests today but it
>> doesn?t look like they did. Do you all agree that these numbers are not
>> better but in fact worse than when they released her on Dec 14th?
>>     Scale 20-Dec 14-Dec 12-Dec
>>  GLU 74-159 122 125 178
>>  BUN 16-36 21 14 23
>>  CREA 08-2.4 1.1 0.8 1.3
>>  BUN/CREA  19 18 18
>>  PHOS 3.1-7.5   4.5
>>  CA 7.8-11.3   9.8  TP 5.7-8.9 8.1 7.9 8.7
>>  ALB 2.2-4.0 3.4 2.9 3.1
>>  GLOB 2.8-5.1 4.7 5 5.6
>>  ALB/GLB  0.7 0.6 0.6
>>  ALT 12-130 581 192 237
>>  ALKP 14-111 81 42 39
>>  GGT 0-4   8   TBIL .0-.9  27.2 27.9
>>  CHOL 65-225   170  AMYL 500-1500   842
>>  LIPA 100-1400   255
>>  NA 150-165   158   K 3.5-5.8   3.4   NA/K    46   CL 112-129   114 OSM
>> CALC    318 Sherri
>>
>>
>> From:  Felvtalk  on behalf of Randy
>> Henke Reply-To:  Date:  Tuesday, December 20, 2016 at 4:54 PM
>> To:  Subject:  Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test Today
>>
>> That is phenomenal, Sherri! I'm hoping for a repeat of that performance
>> with
>> our girl, Curly.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Sherri Godschalk wrote:
>>
>>> Bogey is still improving. The Dr came out to talk with me himself
>>> instead of
>>> sending out a tech. Never does that. He said everything looked good
>>> except her
>>> red blood cells have gotten smaller but there are more of them. As well
>>> as him
>>> being concerned about infection since her WBC and NEU are elevated. I
>>> read
>>> that can be from pred and he gave her a shot of it before he sent her
>>> home
>>> last week when normally I gave her a pill each day. He wants me to start
>>> her
>>> back on the Doxy and Winstrol but not the pred yet. I still feel like it
>>> might
>>> be soon on the Winstrol since she hasn't been out of the hospital for
>>> even a
>>> week yet. I will post the 2nd page of the blood test later if anyone is
>>> interested. But LOOK at the Platelet count...go Bogey!
>>>
>>>        Range 20-Dec 12-Dec 26-Oct 30-Sep 16-Sep 24-Aug
>>>  RBC 6.54 12.2 5.57 4.99 2.54 2.9 2.57 2.43
>>>  HCT 30.3 52.3 30.9 35.1 14.8 17.9 15.3 15.3
>>>  HGB 9.8 16.2 10.2 10.4 5.2 6.2 5.5 5.3
>>>  MCV 35.9 53.1 55.5 70.3 58.3 61.7 59.1 62.6
>>>  MCH 11.8 17.3 18.3 20.8 20.5 21.4 21.4 21.8
>>>  MCHC 28.1 35.8 33 29.6 35.1 34.6 36.2 34.9
>>>  RDW 15 27 23.8 22.2 24.5 25.2 23.7 23.9
>>>  RETIC 3 50 37.3 27.4 89.9 82.1 78.1 61.5
>>>  WBC 2.87 17.02 22.34 8.59 13.05 12.01 14.47 13.46
>>>  NEU 1.48 10.29 15.82 5.42 3.97 3.96 4.07 4.03
>>>  LYM 0.92 6.88 3.98 2.21 7.8 6.81 8.83 7.75
>>>  MONO 0.05 0.67 1.89 0.87 1.16 1.17 1.52 1.58
>>>  EOS 0.17 1.57 0.49 0.08 0.11 0.06 0.004 0.01
>>>  BASO 0.01 0.26 0.16 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0
>>>  PLT 151 800 295 122 28 53 88 50
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 0
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 21:46:37 -0600
>> From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV
>> diagnosis
>> Message-ID: <012c01d25b3c$d67ac0a0$837041e0$@centurytel.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Best of luck to you with Curly ---- just wanted to mention there are
>> appetite stimulant pills available. One that I remember that I used with
>> Tigger was Mirtazapine and I only had to give a small part of a pill every
>> 3 days. Amani knows of another one but I can?t remember the name of it.
>>
>>
>> Ardy
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of
>> Randy Henke
>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 8:10 PM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis
>>
>>
>> Our vet must be one of the good ones. He approved both Winstrol and
>> Doxycycline even though he has never used them for FELV positive cats.
>> We'll be adding those onto Curly's Prednisone as soon as we get them. So
>> far she is hanging in there. She only eats Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers (about
>> a small can every other day) but her weight is holding around 7 pounds.
>> About a half pound below her best weight before she got sick. She still
>> gets up to get drinks of water and use the litter box and she is still
>> grooming herself. She wants very little social interaction which is not
>> like her at all and she has very little energy, preferring to stay on the
>> bed almost all of the time. Her breathing is also fairly rapid and has been
>> for quite a few days.
>>
>> Hopefully this will be another success story for your kitty cocktail.
>> We'll owe you much if it works.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Amani Oakley  > wrote:
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> I really don?t know. I have only had experience with the pills which I
>> found very effective. As a compromise option, I would take if that is the
>> only way the vet will agree to proceed.
>>
>> Amani
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org  ] On Behalf
>> Of Randy Henke
>> Sent: December-19-16 9:46 AM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning
>> FELV diagnosis
>>
>>
>> Hi Amani,
>>
>> I have a call in to our vet now about the Winstrol and Doxycycline. I've
>> read that there is also the option of getting a weekly shot of Winstrol as
>> opposed to the pills. If our vet balks at prescribing the pills but would
>> be willing to give her the shot would it still work as well?
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Amani Oakley  > wrote:
>>
>> Wishing you luck.
>>
>>
>> Amani
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org  ] On Behalf
>> Of Randy Henke
>> Sent: December-16-16 8:12 PM
>>
>>
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning
>> FELV diagnosis
>>
>>
>> Thank you, Amani! I'll see what I can do to convince the vet on Monday.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Amani Oakley  > wrote:
>>
>> 1 mg 2 times a day.
>>
>> Amani
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org  ] On Behalf
>> Of Randy Henke
>> Sent: December-16-16 7:52 PM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning
>> FELV diagnosis
>>
>>
>> That is information that is definitely useful to me! Thanks so much! Do
>> you know what dosage of Winstrol I should ask for for a 6.8 pound cat? I
>> want to have as much info as possible when I talk to my vet on Monday.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Amani Oakley  > wrote:
>>
>> No Randy, Winstrol is an anabolic steroid (unlike prednisone which is a
>> corticosteroid) so it does not have a dampening effect on the immune
>> system. What you need right now is something to stimulate red cell
>> production. If your cat has FELV, then the problem is that the progenitor
>> cells in the bone marrow will have been infiltrated/killed by the virus and
>> thus, the red cell production is down. Red cells have a life span of 120
>> days in circulation, so once that is over and they die, then they must be
>> replenished by a steady supply of new cells from the bone marrow.
>>
>> The only thing I have found that will do that is Winstrol. However, I use
>> it in a cocktail with Doxycycline which has been found to retard the
>> reproduction of viral RNA, and prednisone. This is the only combination of
>> drugs that worked when my cat was in FELV crisis and had a haematocrit
>> result of 5 (with the reference range being something like 25 to 35, off
>> the top of my head). I had tried LTCI and interferon and even though I
>> tested his blood weekly, I saw no change/improvement at all in his red cell
>> count, haematocrit, hemoglobin, platelets, etc. It was only when I stumbled
>> upon the use of Winstrol (he was already on prednisone and Doxy, but they
>> don?t work without the Winstrol), that I saw a steady and sustained
>> improvement in his haematology numbers.
>>
>>
>> The scandal, Randy, is that Winstrol is one of the steroids often
>> implicated in athletic doping scandals, so vets seem to be gun shy about
>> prescribing it. Also, some years ago, a very poorly conducted experiment
>> was published where cats where given 10 times the recommended dose of
>> Winstrol as a ?loading dose? and developed liver problems. So between these
>> two driving forces, you have a lot of uneducated vets who will either think
>> you are ?unethical? for asking for the Winstrol, or believe it is a harmful
>> drug thanks to the stupid scientific study that was published. Plus, even
>> where they are willing to prescribe it (like in Sherri?s case) they don?t
>> recognize the need to couple it with the Doxycycline, and thus, you do get
>> a weak boost of the red cells, etc., but the virus is reproducing
>> rampantly, so in the end, the virus wins. (Then, of course, not recognizing
>> the need for the Doxy, those same vets will view the use of Winstrol as a
>> failure and not likely use it again.)
>>
>>
>> Other medications that might increase red cell production are
>> erythropoietin and related medications, but erythropoietin does not
>> encourage bone marrow growth and development as Winstrol does. Thus, if the
>> progenitor cells in the bone marrow, which produce red cells, white cells
>> and platelets, have been killed by the virus (or converted to infected
>> cells, spewing out more virus) then the erythropoietin will not be
>> effective because it simply encourages those progenitor cells to produce
>> more red cells. However, because they can?t and thus cannot respond to the
>> stimulation by erythropoietin. (If your cat doesn?t have FELV, and has
>> anemia because of some other cause, then the erythropoietin might work.)
>>
>>
>> Winstrol stimulates bone production (experiments have used it effectively
>> in older adults for osteoporosis), and I don?t anything else which fits the
>> bill.
>>
>>
>> Cats with FELV often also have lymphocytes lining the intestinal walls,
>> or other problems with moving food through the intestines. My cat did, and
>> that resulted in (a) loss of appetite (b) vomiting and (c) slow bowel
>> movements. I therefore found it necessary to add a ? tablet of
>> metoclompromine (Reglen) before meal times twice a day. Worked like a charm.
>>
>>
>> This cocktail then brought my baby back from the brink of certain death.
>> I had given him blood transfusions with his anemia, but that is only a
>> short-term solution and he wasn?t producing any red cells (reticulocyte
>> count was basically zero ? this is a measure of new red cell production and
>> should be increased in cases of anemia to demonstrate that the body is
>> producing red cells to compensate for the reduced red cell count). He had
>> had a reaction with his last blood transfusion, and so no more transfusions
>> were possible since the next one would kill him, and I was all out of
>> options as I watched his haematocrit level drop lower and lower, week by
>> week. It had dropped to 10 when I ?discovered? an old bottle of Winstrol in
>> my drawer.
>>
>>
>> Whew. Guess how many times I have given this speech??
>>
>>
>> Amani
>>
>>
>> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of
>> Randy Henke
>> Sent: December-16-16 9:15 AM
>> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org  Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Questioning
>> FELV diagnosis
>>
>>
>> It's interesting that our vet was very hesitant about even prescribing
>> Prednisone because he is afraid it will suppress her immunity to secondary
>> infections. I know that is a risk. Would adding Winstrol suppress her
>> immune system even further? I'm very confused about how to proceed.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Ardy Robertson  > wrote:
>>
>> If I can chime in on Winstrol, it did wonders on my Tigger to get his
>> bloodwork up. I only wish I had started it sooner, along with the
>> prednisolone and doxycycline.
>>
>> Best of luck!
>>
>> Ardy
>>
>>
>>
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