[Felvtalk] Felvtalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 18
Amani Oakley
aoakley at oakleylegal.com
Thu Nov 19 10:46:36 CST 2015
Hi Rain
If Penelope is asymptomatic, that is wonderful. However, at some point I suggest you get blood tests run - specifically a haematology panel. If there are any results that are abnormally low (and I don't mean just slightly out of reference range by a few points), then consider starting the Winstrol. The most likely results to be affected by the FeLV are the red cell count, the haematocrit and the reticulocyte count. If any of these are below the acceptable reference range, you might want to start her on the Winstrol.
If you aren't sure of what the results mean, post them on this chatline or contact me directly and I will try to help. I used to be a Medical Laboratory Technologist so this stuff is easy for me.
Other than getting bloodwork done, keep an eagle eye for changes in condition: lack of appetite, listlessness, breathlessness, greater fatigue going up and down stairs or playing, licking concrete, pale gums/ears/pads, swollen lymph nodes under the jaw, increased temperature.
My suggestion is that if your vet is willing, get the Winstrol now and have it at home just in case. Then, if you detect anything of concern in her condition, you can start her on it immediately without waiting for a vet appointment, etc. The Winstrol will not hurt her anyway, even if she is fine and you give it to her. It will just make her stronger and maybe increase her appetite, etc.
Amani
-----Original Message-----
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Rain Tyler
Sent: November-19-15 9:42 AM
To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Felvtalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 18
Thanks, Amani. I'll talk to my Vet. At what point do you start Winstrol? Penelope is asymptotic at this point.
Sent from my iPad
> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:57 PM, felvtalk-request at felineleukemia.org wrote:
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> 1. Re: Questions from a Newby (Amani Oakley)
> 2. Re: Winstrol (Amani Oakley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:56:30 +0000
> From: Amani Oakley <aoakley at oakleylegal.com>
> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org" <felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Questions from a Newby
> Message-ID:
> <E0C1DFB06E10174B9D4AE353A62CECE33655A2B3 at OAKLEYSRV.oakley.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Rain
>
> I too tried the immunoregulin with my FeLV cat, but I was also doing
> weekly blood testing to monitor if there was truly any positive change
> in things like the red cell count, platelet count, white cell count
> and reticulocyte count, and I did not find any difference at all with
> the injections. I tried the injections for a number of months to
> ensure they had time to take effect, but I saw no evidence of a
> positive effect in my cat's haematology results. In fact, the
> opposite. We had obtained blood transfusions for our cat, because when
> he had his crisis, his red cell count, retic and haematocrit plummeted
> to critical levels. After the blood transfusions, we could tell that
> he wasn't producing his own red cells. (I just answered Jane in
> another email, so I won't go into all the detail again.)
>
> If your cat is doing well, that's great. My only concern is that my Zander was also doing well until he had his life-threatening crisis and if I was able to do it all again, I would have started him on the Winstrol BEFORE the crisis (but I didn't know anything about it, and my vets didn't tell me). It is my personal theory that it was the crisis and the hell his body went through because of the crisis, that ultimately scarred his heart, causing his premature death at the age of 7.
>
> Winstrol is an anabolic steroid. Athletes use it for bulking up, but it has also been used in medicine for severely anemic patients because it boosts red cell production. It also boosts appetite and muscle production, so it has been used in AIDS patients, patients with COPD, patients with cachexia from cancer (wasting away), etc. Athletes report that it helps heal muscle damage faster, etc.
>
> It is my belief that because of Winstrol's involvement in doping scandals, it has been blackballed by the scientific, medical and vet community. Vets say that they don't use it because it causes liver damage, but the research shows this not to be true (though it can cause a significant but temporary bump up in liver enzymes). However, I find that this answer makes no sense at all. If your cat is going to die from this insidious FeLV virus (especially one in crisis like what happened to my cat Zander) then it makes no sense AT ALL to worry about preserving his liver, don't you think?
>
> I get a lot of cats who are on death's door, and the vets will often tell me that there is no hope. This is why I have tried Winstrol in a few different situations. If there is no hope, and my options are a quick euthanasia or a slow wasting away, what could possibly be the downside of trying the Winstrol? I figure that the worst case scenario is no effect at all. Instead, I am often stunned at the excellent results I am getting with seriously debilitated cats, when the vets have basically tried to pressure me to bring the cat in to be put down.
>
> Amani
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf
> Of Rain Tyler
> Sent: November-18-15 8:10 PM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: [Felvtalk] Questions from a Newby
>
> I am not familiar with Winstrol. Is it for anemia? I feel like I have a lot to learn so I am glad I found this group.
>
> Background info: about 18 months ago friends gave us a three day old tuxedo kitten that they found on a roadway. After some initial difficulties, she thrived and became a beautiful healthy kitten. We named her Penelope. I never thought to have her tested for FeLV because I figured that if she had it then she contracted it in utero and I didn't think an infected kitten would thrive like she did. But when she was spayed at 5 months we found out she was FeLV+. A month later, a six week old orange tabby cat appeared by our mailbox. We had him tested immediately and he was also FeLV+. His name is Tarzan. Our other cats are all negative and have all been vaccinated.
>
> At a Vet's suggestion we started a series of nine IV injections of ImmunoRegulin for both FeLV+ kittens according to the protocol. We were hoping to boost their immune systems so that they could fight off the FeLV and possibly convert to negative. During the early treatments Penelope had a bad respiratory infection and then a possible herpes infection. I gave her L-lysine chews on a Vet's recommendation. By the last IR injection, both cats seemed very healthy. Tarzan tested negative but Penelope was still positive. So we tried once weekly ImmunoRegulin injections for twenty weeks.
>
> Penelope was recently retested and is still positive. Since she has been perfectly healthy since last February, I've asked to continue the ImmunoRegulin on a once a month basis. I really think that it has helped. She is now 18 months old and is a pleasantly plump, active and happy cat. I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to keep her that way.
>
> Sorry this is so long and thanks to anyone who takes the time to read it and respond.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:38:56 +0000
>> From: Amani Oakley <aoakley at oakleylegal.com>
>> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org" <felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Lymph nodes
>> Message-ID:
>> <E0C1DFB06E10174B9D4AE353A62CECE336559EBE at OAKLEYSRV.oakley.local>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Jane
>>
>> Speak with your vet. He probably uses a compounding pharmacy for other types of medication. This is where my vet gets Winstrol. Our vet can get the Winstrol in 2 strengths: 2 mg and 1 mg tablets. They are hard to cut in half, but for a long time, that is what I had to do since originally the compounding pharmacy only had the 2 mg size tablets. The tablets are very small and powdery when split, and dissolve very quickly with very little moisture. Therefore, it made life a lot easier when the compounding pharmacy started providing 1 mg sized tablets. If you can only get 2 mg tablets, you also have the option of just giving them once a day, but I think it is better to give 1 mg, 2 times a day.
>>
>> I have no idea where you are located or how big the compounding pharmacy is that my vet uses, but it is called Chiron. (I?m in Ontario, Canada, and I think this compounding pharmacy is located close to Guelph Ontario, near the vet college there).
>>
>> Definitely start your cat on the Winstrol as soon as possible. I have also found Winstrol helpful in a cat I highly suspected of having FIP. She is fine now.
>>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:57:55 +0000
> From: Amani Oakley <aoakley at oakleylegal.com>
> To: "felvtalk at felineleukemia.org" <felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Winstrol
> Message-ID:
> <E0C1DFB06E10174B9D4AE353A62CECE33655A2C6 at OAKLEYSRV.oakley.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Jane
>
> Our little Zander had his crisis when he was about 12 to 18 months old. He was close to death and under an oxygen mask to help him breath because his red cells and haematocrit were so critically low, he couldn?t move oxygen around his body via his blood circulation. We first tried giving him blood transfusions which helped with the immediate crisis, but didn?t ?hold?. Two units of blood only bumped his haematocrit up from 5 to 16, which was still about half of the normal range. Over the subsequent weeks, as we tested his blood, it was clear that his red cells and haematocrit continued to drop, because red cells only have a life span of 120 days and then they die. His retic count was basically zero, showing he wasn?t producing any of his own red cells.
>
> We gave him a second blood transfusion when his haematocrit dropped back down to 10 from 16. They had to stop after a single unit of blood, because Zander had a reaction to the blood transfusion. They don?t cross-match as thoroughly as they do with people, and we were told that this meant that any more blood transfusions would probably kill him as he had developed a reaction.
>
> So with his haematocrit once again dropping from 16 down to 10, I knew
> it was just a matter of time before it would drop down to dangerously
> low levels again and nothing we had tried (Immunoregulin, interferon,
> LTCI) had worked. I therefore did a hail Mary and rummaged through my
> drawers and found some Winstrol meant for another cat years before,
> who had not survived long enough for me to use it. Within 2-3 days
> (SERIOUSLY!), my husband and I noticed a slight blush in Zander?s gums
> (where they had been ivory white before) and when we took him in that
> week for testing, his haematocrit had gone up to 12. Though we were
> very skeptical that it could possibly be the Winstrol, (so, so simple,
> we thought it couldn?t be that the vets didn?t give us this), we kept
> him on it and lo and behold, all his cell lines began a slow and
> steady climb back into the normal ranges. It took 6-8 months to get
> him into the normal range and I kept him on the Winstrol the whole
> time, but cut the dose
f
> rom the original 2 mg 2 times a day to 1 mg 2 times a day. Whenever I would try to discontinue the Winstrol, there would be an immediate dip in his weekly blood work, so there is no question in my mind that the Winstrol was keeping his red cells in the normal range.
>
> After about 10 months, I did wean him off to give his body a break, and he was doing phenomenally well. His appetite had immediately increased, right at the outset of the Winstrol usage, and his activity level also increased. The technician at the vet?s office who took his weekly bloodwork, told me that after about 3 months, she could feel the difference as he was feeling very solid and strong to her.
>
> Zander lived to about the age of 7. He died from a heart condition that appears to have been caused by the initial FeLV infection, since I have since heard others on this chatlines describe the same type of heart problem that Zander ended up with. (No question I queried if it might have been the Winstrol but as much as I can reassure myself, I believe that it wasn?t, both from my research and from the fact that other people whose cats have FeLV also describe unusual heart problems later in their lives.) In any event, even if I had any doubt about the Winstrol, I also had no choice. There is no question at all that Zander was going to die before he even turned two. The vet specialist who saw Zander, told me that there was zero hope, since I couldn?t keep giving him blood transfusions. When I called him a year later to report on Zander?s condition, he was absolutely stunned that Zander was still alive.
>
> I don?t think you need to do much blood testing with the Winstrol, but
> you may want to, to convince yourself (or more likely, your vet) that
> it is working. If my vet hadn?t tracked the blood results with me, I
> doubt she would have believed that the Winstrol could do this. The
> only think I caution about, and have indicated it many times on this
> chatline already, is that Winstrol can shoot up your cat?s liver
> enzymes. This freaks out the vets who insist on discontinuing the
> Winstrol. In Zander?s case, I obviously had to ignore this. He was
> going to die without this medication, so being worried about his liver
> was secondary to me, until he recovered. What I learned is that the
> enzyme increase is transitory in nature and leaves no lasting effect
> on the liver. Zander had no liver problems although he was on it for
> at least 70% of the his life. I have also used it in other situations
> where there is ?no hope?, (nasal sarcoma in a 16 year old cat; FIP in
> a 6 month old kitten; spina
l
> damage in a kitten; torn knee ligament in Zander ? who was supposed to need surgery, but ended up not), and the Winstrol has either helped a lot or at the very least, increased appetite, weight, etc.
>
> Amani
>
> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf
> Of Jane Gannon
> Sent: November-18-15 8:17 PM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Lymph nodes
>
> Do I just keep him on this indefinetely? Do I have to keep having his blood tested, how often? How long did this help your cat? Do you still have this cat?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amani Oakley<mailto:aoakley at oakleylegal.com>
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Lymph nodes
>
> Hi Jane
>
> Speak with your vet. He probably uses a compounding pharmacy for other types of medication. This is where my vet gets Winstrol. Our vet can get the Winstrol in 2 strengths: 2 mg and 1 mg tablets. They are hard to cut in half, but for a long time, that is what I had to do since originally the compounding pharmacy only had the 2 mg size tablets. The tablets are very small and powdery when split, and dissolve very quickly with very little moisture. Therefore, it made life a lot easier when the compounding pharmacy started providing 1 mg sized tablets. If you can only get 2 mg tablets, you also have the option of just giving them once a day, but I think it is better to give 1 mg, 2 times a day.
>
> I have no idea where you are located or how big the compounding pharmacy is that my vet uses, but it is called Chiron. (I?m in Ontario, Canada, and I think this compounding pharmacy is located close to Guelph Ontario, near the vet college there).
>
> Definitely start your cat on the Winstrol as soon as possible. I have also found Winstrol helpful in a cat I highly suspected of having FIP. She is fine now.
>
> Amani
>
> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf
> Of Jane Gannon
> Sent: November-17-15 11:54 AM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org<mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Lymph nodes
>
> I have had the worst nightmare happen to me. I have a large cat
> family, I used to work at a cat rescue organization and I also help
> any cats that show up at my door. Last year one of my two outdoor
> cats started to loose weight. He was 12 so I thought maybe kidney or
> hyperthyroid. He started having anisocoria (one pupil lager than the
> other) and then I noticed 3 other cats with the same thing. I
> researched online and found that it can happen to FELV+ cats. So I
> took them all to the vet and found out they were positive. I then
> took the rest of my cat family and found out I had a total of 10
> positives and 12 negatives. I vacinated the negatives and am letting
> them all live together. Since that time I have lost 5. Two older ones
> actually died from kidney disease, I had to euthanise my son's 2 two
> year olds cats, one developed FIP and the other ended up getting
> neurological problems until he could no longer walk. I euthanised one
> that was having difficulty breathing
an
> d was no longer eating. So I searched for a group that was going through the same thing so maybe I could learn about what can be done. Grayson, who is positive, is now loosing weight. He is 12 so I hoped maybe kidney or hyperthyroid so I had his blood tested and he does not have either. He is starting to have the sylmptoms of FELV. His hematocrit is 19 and he also has an abcess on his face that doesn't want to heal. He is acting like his old self and eating well. I know my vet would not have a problem using winstrol, he has always worked with me. Where would he get it from? Should I start it now before he gets worse.
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> End of Felvtalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 18
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