[Felvtalk] FW: Felvtalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9

[dlgegg at windstream.net]

RE:  other cats, Annie has been around all my cats(now down to 4) who died of old age, 18 and 19.  They get their vaccinations for FELV.  My vet said as long as the others are vacinnated and they do not get into a "to the death" fight where their is exchange of blood or saliva, they are safe.  Must be because they are all living a healthy, hapy life style.  

---- Ardy Robertson <ardyr at centurytel.net> wrote: 
> My Tigger who is FeLV+ and was sick, has since rounded the corner and is better. My vet had him on interferon. After she considered him to be “back to normal” she wanted to wait 30 days and retest him for the virus. I had him retested two weeks ago, and he is still positive unfortunately but is doing wonderfully – eating, drinking, playing, happy etc. He had lost two and a half pounds, and has gained it all back except for 2/10’s of a pound. She said he could go on like this indefinitely, but is still considered a “carrier”. I of course will not have him near other cats except his housemate who is 18 and negative. They originally wanted me to put her down too (and she is perfectly healthy – just old.) Hello! Could I at least wait until she gets sick??? Duh.
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> Since Tigger is still positive, I asked the vet about Winstrol if he needs something later on, and she is now AGREEABLE to getting it for me at that point if necessary. I am located in West Central Wisconsin. I hope I never need to ask for it, but  it was nice to hear that she is willing to prescribe it if I want it. Maybe there are a few vets that are beginning to listen. When Tigger first got sick, she did not offer it, but I have mentioned it to her a few times so she may have done some reading on it. I also am using a second vet who is closer to my home for some of Tigg’s needs and have talked to them about it too. Their position on FeLV+ cats has always been to euthanize immediately, and since Tigger’s return to health, they were questioning me on what my other vet did to treat him. Both of the vet offices have been amazed at Tigger’s recovery, and seem to feel that now there is a chance for FeLV+ cats. I pray every day that Tigger will live out the remainder of his life as a healthy cat. He is 5 now, and they feel that he was born with it, even though he tested negative when I first found him. (They said he must have been “shedding” the virus at the time I had him tested, so the test was inaccurate. Apparently you have to retest if you want to be sure…..who knew?) They also told me the vaccination can be ineffective in some cases. 
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> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Amani Oakley
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 11:35 AM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org
> Subject: [Felvtalk] FW: Felvtalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9
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> I tried to send this on December 19th. It is being held to review by the listserve because it is too large a file. I don’t know how long it takes to review, but I think three days is a bit unreasonable. I am trying to send it again.
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> Amani
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> Dear Annette:
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> Believe me – I’ve talked and talked to my vets and a very good friend of mine who is also a senior research vet. They really can’t give me any reason for the bizarre response. They refer back to the rise in enzymes but also – like your vet – usually concede the rise is temporary and there is no real evidence of actual damage to the liver. Having had these conversations, researched the medication like crazy, especially in light of the amazing response I have seen in my cats, I ultimately came up with the theory of the bad association with athletic abuse. Maybe it’s a little like going in and asking for a substance that the general public associates with bad things – say cannabis (marijuana). Even with proof of a good response in animals (because there is also evidence on line of Winstrol’s effectiveness in dogs) the immediate reaction would be a negative one because of the public perception of cannabis.
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> However, the problem I have with this automatic and not-particularly well-thought out response is several-fold:
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> 1.       We just DON’T have that many effective options with feline leukemia so to refuse to even consider a medication that may reverse the severe anemia which results from FeLV and seems to also boost the production of white cells and platelets, as well as allowing the animal to FEEL better, eat more and put on weight, is nonsensical, and frankly, the choice should be that of the owner – not the vet. If something might actually save my cat’s life, I have a right to know about it, rather than being told to put my cat down. Period.
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> 2.       It is highly unlikely that a vet would not know if a person were instead abusing the medication for him/herself or selling it. At the recommended dose for a cat (1 mg tablets), a person would have to take 10 to 12 tablets to get to the RECOMMENDED dose for a human. To abuse the drug at the levels taken by athletes, one would have to take more than double those number of tablets daily (and I have no idea how many more than double, since athletes sometimes use it at 100 or 1,000 times higher than the recommended dose). But even at the recommended human dose – ie – a level which is used in humans to treat things like severe anemia – the average number of pills given by a vet at one time for a cat (say 50 to 100 pills, which I sometimes get from my vet) would be used up in 5 to 10 days. Winstrol has to be taken for considerably longer than that to have much effect. Thus, it would more than obvious to any vet with a modicum of concern, if a client were potentially abusing the medication. And besides, it’s hardly the only drug that vets give out that can also be used in people and has the potential for abuse. (eg – phenobarbital – one of my cats was on it because he suffered from very serious seizures – often multiples in a day. This is a known street drug, and a favourite drug abused by teens. I never had any problem or issues getting it from my vet, and in fact, never knew until long after my cat passed away, that it could be abused in this way.) Bottom line, Winstrol poses no more danger than all kinds of other medications we routinely get from vets without them acting like you’re asking for something that suggests you’re morally bankrupt. And again, is it fair to a dying cat that a vet might decide not to even tell you about this option, because maybe, just maybe, he or she wonders if you are going to abuse the drug and try out for the Olympics?
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> 3.       Remember that Winstrol can be and is used in human patients. It is not “illegal” to use Winstrol in human medicine. Like most other medications, it requires a prescription to obtain it. It is only a banned substance if you are an athlete and competing, BECAUSE IT IS A PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG AND CONSIDERED ABLE TO “UNFAIRLY” BOOST YOUR SPEED, ENDURANCE, STRENGTH, AND ABILITY TO RECOVER FROM A STRENOUS WORK-OUT OR INJURY, AGAINST YOUR ATHLETIC COMPETITORS. Our cats aren’t in the Olympics. We just want them to survive.
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> 4.       Like marijuana, the public hype may get in the way of reality. We were all brought up to consider marijuana bad, and if you tried it, you were bad too. Anyone who has looked into the fascinating story of how modern society ended up deciding this substance was bad, will see many parallels with the Winstrol story. In both, the public reaction has been fueled by not particularly accurate media coverage, that glosses over the lack of scientific validity for our strong negative response to both. It is becoming more and more apparent from scientific testing and people’s personal experiences and testimonials, that there are significant medicinal uses for marijuana – often in circumstances where nothing else has worked. Sadly, I think that Winstrol is in the same category. We won’t be told about its potential usage because of the stigma attached to it – not because it doesn’t work. This angers me greatly. If vets had something effective to offer instead, then I would surely not care. But my cat almost died and the vets were uniform in recommending he be put down to “maintain his quality of life” while I desperately searched for something that might work. To recommend he be put down, instead of at least offering a trial of a drug that might help (even if I believe the more benign reason of the fear of liver damage – which again makes no sense as he was dying anyway), I think is unethical. The choice should be mine. My cat shouldn’t be denied a drug because Ben Johnston lost the gold medal in the 1988 Olympics because he was on Winstrol when he set a record for running the mile. (And this is precisely when the use of Winstrol plummeted – after this scandal.) My cat wasn’t planning to run the mile in the Olympics any time soon – he just wanted to enjoy a few good years on this earth.
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> 5.       Annette, again, if your hypothesis is correct and you think that perhaps vets won’t prescribe this medication because they fear a stigma being attached to their names if they do, I would have to point out the obvious lack of ethics in leaving an animal to die in order to allegedly protect your name. Once again, I point out the obvious: the choice does not rest with the vet. It rests with the owner. The owner cannot make an educated decision if he or she isn’t even being made aware of Winstrol as an option. If the vet felt that strongly about it - and seriously, if the vet does, I think that shows some lack of insight and research – but if so, then the vet should tell the client and indicate that if the client wants the medication, he or she will have to go elsewhere. It is not appropriate for the vet to impose his/her perception of stigma onto an unsuspecting and unknowing client, when the outcome may well be the death of the cat. 
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> I know I sound like an evangelical minister on this stuff, but it is precisely because I agree with you Annette. As I searched for an explanation as to why I hadn’t been told about the potential to use Winstrol when my Zander was dying, I realized that it had nothing at all to do with the medical use of Winstrol and everything to do with the stigma associated with it and this incensed me. Had I not opened up my drawer and desperately decided to try anything I found in there because my cat was dying and I was out of options, Zander would have died at the age of one-and-a-half. And then to find out that I hadn’t just “discovered” something unknown, but that the vets knew of it and used to prescribe it, but never bothered to tell me about it – well that was just stunning to me. Others on this chatline have suggested that vets stopped using it because it just wasn’t that effective, but (a) that hasn’t been my experience and (b) even if there was only a slim chance of success, when the odds that my cat was going to die, were 100%, I should have been given the option of trying it.
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> I am happy that my vet trusts me and that I have been allowed to explore the use of Winstrol in feline leukemia and other conditions. That is the type of partnership that I would hope everyone has with their vet.
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> Amani
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> From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-bounces at felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of Annette Burton
> Sent: December-19-15 7:51 AM
> To: felvtalk at felineleukemia.org <mailto:felvtalk at felineleukemia.org> 
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Felvtalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9
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> Good morning.
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> I recently posted about losing my four year old Sam, to feline leukemia. I took his brother , Domino, in to get him tested. He was negative, and my vet gave him the vaccine, along with 3 year rabies, and two other things, and he had a terrible reaction, which abated after four days .
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> During Dom visit, I asked her about Winstrol. She almost seemed as if it were a taboo subject, although she agreed that the elevated liver enzymes drop after stopping it for a few days. 
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> I wish she had not been so busy that day. As I'd have loved to talk with her more, about why vets seem so frightened of winstrol. She did mention it being a med abused by athletes. Perhaps they fear a stigma being attached to their names, for even prescribing it, or someone potentially abusing it?
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